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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by 3pt14159 on Thursday May 03, 2012 @01:19PM (#3924748)
In my experience Europeans have a different view of life than North Americans. Especially East coasters. In work I find they are more interested in perfection and creativity, and less so on productivity, output, and efficiency.

Thirty days of holiday a year is affordable if North Americans would be fine with houses that were 13% less spacious, but most North Americans I met heavily optimize living space, where Europeans outsource their after hour times to pubs and social atmospheres. An "excellent" amount of vacation in North America is 20 days + 7 or so Government mandated days off. I've yet to meet someone under 35 that has a better deal than that, even in tech, and for most workers it is 10 days + 7.

Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by rdtsc on Thursday May 03, 2012 @01:34PM (#3924829)
Interesting observation on how Americans optimize on living space. In a certain way I optimized for more time with my family. That comes as #1 priority. That means to thing: more vacation time and minimum commute to work (it take me 7 minutes to get to work). This mean reducing the living space and living in an older house. Granted I am not American by birth so perhaps it is something in the "blood" as they say.

Commutes and spending time in traffic is killing me. It is a dead, useless time, it creates stress and eats away at my life little by little every single day. If you spend 1.5 hours driving to work each way, add that time up for 10 years and you'll be shocked. If I wouldn't have a family I might think twice, but thinking that I could spend that time with them instead and being stuck on the freeway is unbearable to me.

Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by Retric on Thursday May 03, 2012 @05:06PM (#3925816)
I am a 31 year old programmer working 40 hour weeks in the US. I get 21 days PTO + 2 floating holidays + 7 Government holidays + 5 days training days + 3 months sick leave at full pay + unlimited sick leave at 60% pay (long term disability). I also pay 2k/month in rent for a small, but nice apartment in the DC area.

Ignoring sick-leave and training that works out to 30 days / year off, they don't let you cash it out and there is a 25day cap designed to get you to actually use that time off. (Most people end up taking a month off every other year or so, they also let you go a little negative to encourage longer vacations.)

PS: They also do maternity / adoption leave, and give separate time off for funerals etc.

Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by enjo on Friday May 04, 2012 @01:57AM (#3927246)
Where is this?:)
Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by Retric on Friday May 04, 2012 @08:31AM (#3928070)
http://www.boozallen.com/ they start you at 16 or 17 days PTO after 5 years it's bumped to 21, but all the other benefits stay the same.

PS: I know plenty of people who work insane hours there. But, it's not 'required' just useful for promotions etc.

Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by tbrownaw on Thursday May 03, 2012 @03:09PM (#3925251)
An "excellent" amount of vacation in North America is 20 days + 7 or so Government mandated days off. I've yet to meet someone under 35 that has a better deal than that, even in tech, and for most workers it is 10 days + 7.

27 years old, with 25 "PTO" days + 6 fixed 1.5 day holidays + 2 fixed 2.5 day holidays. Middle-ish USA (Memphis TN).

Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by khuey on Thursday May 03, 2012 @02:13PM (#3925014)
All US employees at Mozilla have 21 days + 10 government-ish holidays off so it's not unheard of.
Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by reinhardt on Thursday May 03, 2012 @01:42PM (#3924860)
Does vacation here mean paid only or total? Personally I wouldn't mind that much if it meant paid only and I was allowed to take a pay cut in exchange for more (unpaid) vacation days.
Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by cpeterso on Thursday May 03, 2012 @02:17PM (#3925026)
In the US, "vacation days" and "sick days" are PTO (Paid Time-Off). So workers can sometimes "cash out" vacation days rather than taking them off, but it is uncommon to take unpaid days off.
Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by reinhardt on Thursday May 03, 2012 @03:10PM (#3925255)
I understand it's uncommon as the culture is generally more money/debt driven. I'm just curious if suggesting it to a prospective employer would be negotiable or an instant disqualifier ("How dare he be satisfied with less money?? He must be a pinko commie!")
Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by angelbob on Thursday May 03, 2012 @03:42PM (#3925396)
Most employers are fine if you take extra unpaid days off as long as you tell them in advance.

Disclaimer: I work in software in silicon valley.

Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by zbuc on Thursday May 03, 2012 @04:00PM (#3925474)
> I'm just curious if suggesting it to a prospective employer would be negotiable or an instant disqualifier ("How dare he be satisfied with less money?? He must be a pinko commie!")

Depends entirely on the employer.

Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by zeroonetwothree on Thursday May 03, 2012 @01:40PM (#3924853)
I know some engineers that get 30 days off (including federal holidays).