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Re:Post Office plan to sack Horizon IT reviewer kept secret,... by bbarnett on Friday January 26, 2024 @05:45AM (#39141128)
Agree that the courts are somewhat to blame.

But really, to me, the full blame should be on the Post Office, and those involved.

Trying to conceal problems? Purposefully ignoring bugs? Not listening to, well, everyone. Lying to the courts?

People need to be in jail, and starting at the top.

I'm not going to absolve Fujitsu, but I have worked government contracts in Canada. They constantly change, morph requirements, not for any real reasons other than "Oh you build this entire thing? We didn't think of X, let's add that".

Meanwhile, X basically means an entire rewrite.

I've even had situations where "Let's add X" happens, then after done, "Aw, never mind, remove that".

It's a different world.

Re:Post Office plan to sack Horizon IT reviewer kept secret,... by robertlagrant on Friday January 26, 2024 @06:02AM (#39141252)
I'm not sure that both of these can be true at once:

> Agree that the courts are somewhat to blame.

> But really, to me, the full blame should be on the Post Office, and those involved.

Anyway.

> They constantly change, morph requirements

All software systems are like that. Even if they weren't, the moment a new law comes in you'd need to change them anyway. If the engineering process and build can't withstand change, that's a problem.

It seems clear that the Post Office and Fujitsu were complicit in the coverup, and the justice system utterly failed the defendants. All three are so poorly behaved, I hope some change will be triggered. Sadly, I think the way of the world is all organisations regress to the mean, and lots of them are allowed to let their mean get pretty low.

Re:Post Office plan to sack Horizon IT reviewer kept secret,... by Xylakant on Friday January 26, 2024 @06:35AM (#39141490)
I consider “the full blame should be on the Post Office, and those involved.” a dangerous position. A systems must hold even if individuals fail or behave in malicious ways, and focusing strongly on individual culpability tends to overshadow the failures of the system. It’s very easy to go on from there to “If those individuals had just acted properly, none of this would have happened.”

I don’t mean to diminish the culpability of all those involved in the coverup, but the system needs fixing more than they need punishment. Fixing the system has a chance of preventing future harm, punishment does not, at least not to the same extend.

Re:Post Office plan to sack Horizon IT reviewer kept secret,... by lupire on Friday January 26, 2024 @07:55AM (#39142090)
What on earth are you talking about? The system was working, until a few individuals actively sabotaged it for personal gain.

This wasn't cogs in a machine that went awry, this was intentional malicious behavior.

Handwaving about "fixing a system" is begging th question. No system made by humans can resist malice of those humans.

Re:Post Office plan to sack Horizon IT reviewer kept secret,... by Xylakant on Friday January 26, 2024 @08:13AM (#39142250)
The system was obviously very much not working. Some of the individuals that caused this acted on negligence, some careless ass-covering, some probably maliciously for their own gain.

But there are a few key points that made it essentially impossible for the accused postmasters to defend themselves against the allegations, among them as a key point the presumption that computer records are correct and must be challenged by the defendant, not proven by prosecution. And to challenge these, you’d need to have the internal records that you can’t access as defendant - no surprise that many of the accused entered a plea deal, knowing that they’d never stand a chance in a trial.

Then, the Post office boasting powers to investigate and bring cases, while not being held to the same standards as the Crown Prosecution, meaning no independent review, no challenge.

This basically made all efforts to defend hopeless, and you can see the results. The cases did turn on the outstanding work of a few heroic individuals and a stroke of luck - if not for those, this all would have gone away quietly, with the postmaster convicted, broken, silenced.

A system that allows for that is broken, and the same thing will happen again, unless the shortfalls are addressed, because careless, negligent and even somewhat malicious individuals are plenty, and heroic people defending are rare.

I can recommend reading this, which sheds some light on the legal details that made the scandal possible at this scale. https://emptycity.substack.com/p/how-the-legal-system-made-i...

Re:Post Office plan to sack Horizon IT reviewer kept secret,... by staunton on Friday January 26, 2024 @08:15AM (#39142268)
> No system made by humans can resist malice of those humans.

Some systems have a better chance of resisting a few malicious actors within than others.

There's no reason not to do both: punish the people who broke the law and also think how in the future we might prevent such a disaster happening again (or expose it sooner, or minimize the damage it can do)

Re:Post Office plan to sack Horizon IT reviewer kept secret,... by mistrial9 on Friday January 26, 2024 @08:32AM (#39142399)
> They constantly change, morph requirements,

I saw this directly in California too. State employee bureaucrats changing the spec and deliverables, even on tight deadline or high priority results.