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Re:Thinking in a Foreign Language Makes Decisions More Rational by robomartin on Friday April 27, 2012 @05:29PM (#3901101)
I have to disagree with you. I think it is cultural much more so than language. I have lived in a couple of cultures and travelled extensively during the past ten years. At the risk of offending more than a few, there's what some have come to call the "feminization" of American men. Maybe it's a result of the ability to sue anyone for anything, I don't know. But there's a very distinct characteristic to men (an women) from other cultures that will place the uber-polite American men and women at a disadvantage in certain situations.

Here's an example that isn't really about what I am talking about but speaks to the cultural and environmental differences:

Here in Los Angeles it is not too uncommon to see people crossing a street without even looking right or left and without continuously scanning for cars as they cross the street. I've also seen (kids!!!!) crossing the street running. Now, go down to Buenos Aires and try that on for size. Or do it in Rome. Or cross a bike path in Amsterdam without looking. You'll land yourself in a hospital, if you are lucky.

It's the same out in Manhattan, of course.

Non-scientific, non-extensive observation, but I don't think the lack of assertiveness has anything to do with language but rather culture. I can be assertive in a few languages, but I spent most of my young life in a more, shall we say, "fire-y" culture.

Re:Thinking in a Foreign Language Makes Decisions More Rational by jtheory on Sunday April 29, 2012 @09:50PM (#3907693)
I can't speak generally, but in my case it's not primarily a cultural issue. I also spend a decent amount of time in urban Malaysia, and the cultural gap to that (from the east coast US, where I grew up) is a much further jump than I get coming here to France; but I'm interacting in English there, and I'm more comfortable if confrontation arises than when speaking French.

I've also traveled elsewhere (fairly widely in India), and the need for confrontation does arise (being a tourist in any hugely-trafficked area makes you a nice fat target if you can't stand up for yourself), but I got the hang of it -- again, speaking English. France is ridiculously tame, by comparison... but it's been here where I've had to relearn how not to get scammed.

I think the real problems were mentioned in other comments: added latency, and lack of gut emotional connection to the words. (Interestingly, the cultural-gap-doubt I mentioned -- "is this normal behavior?" -- applies to travel in places where I don't speak the language at all, like eastern Europe, but the latency doesn't, since I'm just sticking with English in my head).

Side note #1. I really bristle at the arguments (and terminology) about "feminization" of men; there uglier terms for this idea, but in any form it's offensive. The idea that any trend of men being less aggressive, dominating, and verbally or physically violent is NEGATIVE just blows my mind. There's a huge difference between calmly standing up for yourself (an admirable action in a man or woman) and strutting around with your fists always at the ready and a sneer on your mouth.

Societies in general are better places with fewer of the latter wandering around and breaking each others' noses. And most folks who are succeeding in life according to my definitions have far more social sophistication.

Side note #2: It's not that hard to cross a road in any country. If you've never been there before, just spend a few minutes observing people and cars, and do what works locally. Dunno how this has anything to do with gender or culture, though I do see Americans overseas who seem to think they haven't left America -- that may apply as a cultural failure.

Re:Thinking in a Foreign Language Makes Decisions More Rational by personlurking on Friday April 27, 2012 @09:52PM (#3901774)
Why HN is my favorite site. People bring up viewpoints that I haven't even thought of, yet agree with.

I live in S. America and I see the same thing you're talking about in BsAs...but I actually prefer the way crossing the street is (I think it's safe to say anywhere) outside of the US because it makes people be aware. I've found myself many times taking chances with this because of my US attitude that I can just sue anyone that might hit me (as an aside, my cousin was hit by an ambulance in the US and won 250K, then invested smartly and turned it into 1 mil...at 21 yrs old). These days, this viewpoint of suing people in another country makes me chuckle.

Re:Thinking in a Foreign Language Makes Decisions More Rational by carguy1983 on Friday April 27, 2012 @06:01PM (#3901205)
> Here in Los Angeles it is not too uncommon to see people crossing a street

I live in SM and work in West LA. Most of the crosswalks simply don't have lights. Not even the ones in the ground that flash yellow. If you don't go for it, you'll never cross because there's no reason for anyone to stop.

"Feminized" (and I disagree with this characterization because - have you met any females in latin or european countries? Quite assertive.) men would just stand there, waiting for traffic to stop. I see that here a lot from clueless people.

Locals like me just charge into traffic on foot, consequences be damned. I just walk in front of a 50MPH vehicle and stare them down and dare them to run me over. Hasn't happened yet. Try it some time, that's livin' ;)

Re:Thinking in a Foreign Language Makes Decisions More Rational by koenigdavidmj on Friday April 27, 2012 @06:04PM (#3901220)
> Try it some time, that's livin' ;)

Or so you hope.

Re:Thinking in a Foreign Language Makes Decisions More Rational by robomartin on Friday April 27, 2012 @06:18PM (#3901267)
"Feminized" isn't the right way to put it. I just threw it out there. As you correctly point out, women in other cultures are quite assertive. I should point out that I am not the one to coin the phrase:

http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/142_dating_advice...

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8...

Walking in front of a car doing 50mph might be OK in West LA. Please don't try it in another country unless you want to experience their intensive care facilities.

On the point of crossing the street with fast moving traffic, you don't really need to do what you are doing. It's a dance. If you've ever been to Manhattan you know what I am talking about. Cross a little, wait, one more lane, wait, etc. No big deal if you know what you are doing.

What I am talking about is the total absence of the external appearance of awareness. It's one thing to cross the street and stare a driver in the eyes. It's quite another to cross the street while looking at the ground. I teach my kids that if there's no eye contact with the driver they don't get in front of that car. Plain and simple. They've also had some "training" in Manhattan and parts of Europe. You'll never see them cross a street without looking.

To be clear, being masculine does not mean being a complete asshole. In fact, quite the opposite, in my opinion. It's a balance. It's being a gentleman while remaining assertive and considerate. It is yielding your seat in the train to an older person. While, at the same time, not bending with the wind when it is important. It's about a balance that I can't fully define. All else being equal, I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with language.

Re:Thinking in a Foreign Language Makes Decisions More Rational by carguy1983 on Friday April 27, 2012 @07:09PM (#3901434)
I find it somewhat cute you think New York and Europe have aggressive drivers. In my experience, with the exception of Rome, they basically follow the rules and give right of way. Boston is worse than NY. Nobody even stops at red lights.

Try visiting Asia. They actively try to hit pedestrians to teach them a lesson, especially in large cities like Shanghai in China (TW and SG and JP are a bit better).

The opposite end of the spectrum is Denver, CO. People just wander around in the streets. It's a known thing. The cab drivers all hate it.

My point is that the culture of LA allows it, so you should do it. LA isn't any of these places. And yes, I'm bragging about how well traveled I am right now.

Re:Thinking in a Foreign Language Makes Decisions More Rational by robomartin on Saturday April 28, 2012 @05:58PM (#3904252)
I wasn't necessarily talking about drivers but rather people in inter-personal contact.

Asia is on my list. I've mainly done Europe and S. America. Almost went to Tokyo to study Aikido for six months but just couldn't pull it together. Maybe next time.

Re:Thinking in a Foreign Language Makes Decisions More Rational by carguy1983 on Sunday April 29, 2012 @02:59PM (#3906671)
Wow, Japan, where they worship white people.

How adventurous and original of you. Did you think of that one all on your own?