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Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by modeless on Thursday December 28, 2023 @11:40AM (#38795262)
> To keep things simple, let's say I never regurgitate chunks of verbatim NYT articles, maybe quite short snippets.

You just described Google. When you think about it, it's surprising that Google is legal. However, it is well established that what Google does is perfectly legal. Remember that internally Google keeps and uses complete verbatim copies of every web page they index.

Yes, Google offers a link to the source. If OpenAI did the same, even if only 0.1% of people clicked on the links and NYTimes hardly got any revenue from it, would that make it legal in your eyes? What if they implemented a system that detected when it was outputting a verbatim copy of something and simply paraphrased it? NYTimes clearly doesn't have copyright on paraphrased versions of their articles. I think it would be pretty silly if the government forced them to do that as it wouldn't make any practical difference to anyone.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by graeme on Thursday December 28, 2023 @11:58AM (#38795477)
Any publisher can opt out of google. Publisher also have substantial control over titles and snippets shown in google, whether an article appears in google news, etc

Paraphrasing is also known as cloning and is often a copyright violation

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by modeless on Thursday December 28, 2023 @12:11PM (#38795635)
Copyright law doesn't mention opt outs or search engine snippet controls. It's not clear to me that robots.txt is the singular thing that makes Google legal.

In US copyright law facts cannot be copyrighted, so copyright on factual content like newspaper articles is limited. Simply replacing a few words wouldn't work, but I am certain that GPT-4 is capable of paraphrasing factual content at a level that would not be considered infringement if a human did it.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by freejazz on Thursday December 28, 2023 @01:15PM (#38796521)
>Copyright law doesn't mention opt outs or search engine snippet controls. It's not clear to me that robots.txt is the singular thing that makes Google legal.

Genuinely - what are you talking about besides your own assumptions? you just assume everything google does is legal and therefore any one else doing anything arguably similar must also be legal? Without regard for factual details that do matter to copyright law? Such as license?? Your own description of copyright law here is very stunted - you can't paraphrase articles of the NYTimes and call it a fair use. You can report on what the NYtimes reports on... because that's what news is.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by modeless on Thursday December 28, 2023 @02:04PM (#38797191)
> you just assume everything google does is legal

Not an assumption. This is well established. They've been doing it for twenty years!

> Without regard for factual details that do matter to copyright law? Such as license??

What license? Google doesn't in general have or need an explicit license to crawl websites and neither does OpenAI.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by freejazz on Sunday December 31, 2023 @05:21PM (#38828041)
>Not an assumption. This is well established. They've been doing it for twenty years!

It's not at all well-established. How many anti-trust suits is Google facing now? Your proposition defies common sense.

>What license? Google doesn't in general have or need an explicit license to crawl websites and neither does OpenAI.

It's not the crawling the website that OpenAI did that it needs a license for... why bother conversing if you are going to be this obtuse?

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by LargeTomato on Thursday December 28, 2023 @02:49PM (#38797754)
If I make a website that scrapes NYT and passes it back and forth through a machine translator, say, English -> Spanish -> English, then the content will be slightly modified. Is this legal to make money off of?

Seems like the legal answer is unclear but, like Napster, such a system seems like it would lose in court.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by blacksmith_tb on Thursday December 28, 2023 @03:10PM (#38798003)
It would be unlikely to be something you'd find paying customers for, though? I suppose if you charged a small percentage of what NYT charges people might be willing to consider it, but you'd have some costs for hosting etc., so I am skeptical about its viability as a business model...
Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by LargeTomato on Saturday December 30, 2023 @04:49PM (#38819562)
I'd serve fake news en-masse to low IQ people who click things to feel good about their own views. I'd also build a handful of websites (ideally as many as I can personally manage) to flood the Internet with fake news clickbait.

One site clones fox news. One clones news max. And so on, cloning many news sites, sports sites, any news site. Automated, massive scale content farming. Think of the websites recommended by Taboola but, realistically, a whole lot worse.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by graeme on Thursday December 28, 2023 @04:39PM (#38799022)
That’s not the only reason. Google search is also transformative and non competitive with the underlying publications. And that is why the opt out is important. If you feel google competes with your site you don’t have to sue Google: just tell them to to away
Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by modeless on Thursday December 28, 2023 @05:06PM (#38799313)
Transformative yes, so is ChatGPT. Much more so actually. Non-competitive is debatable. Especially with the instant answers Google has in addition to regular snippets which can also obviate the need to visit a site. I have a hard time seeing ChatGPT as competing with newspapers more than Google Search does.

Nobody is seriously going to ChatGPT and trying to trick it into regurgitating old NYT articles as an alternative to paying for access to NYT's archives. Meanwhile, newspapers went as far as getting the laws changed in several countries because they felt Google was competing with them too much and didn't like the fact that it was legal.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by mawise on Friday December 29, 2023 @01:43PM (#38808622)
> Any publisher can opt out of google.

Can they? Here's reference to a legal fight where Google scraped song lyrics from a lyrics website, and presented the lyrics verbatim directly to users (bypassing the original site and the ads that allowed that site to operate)

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/genius-law...

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by inetknght on Thursday December 28, 2023 @11:54AM (#38795427)
> However, it is well established that what Google does is perfectly legal.

Google has a wide range of products and shakedowns. Not all of them are "perfectly" legal: Google is being challenged in court over some of their shakedowns and products practices.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by modeless on Thursday December 28, 2023 @11:57AM (#38795464)
I am clearly talking about the web search engine in the context of copyright. Other products or legal concerns like antitrust are completely irrelevant here.
Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by caconym_ on Thursday December 28, 2023 @01:59PM (#38797125)
You took that quote out of context and missed the broader point in the process. The snippets provided in regular search results cannot generally replace the substance of the full articles they link to, while that's the whole point of GP's hypothetical website—it simply doesn't reproduce large chunks of text verbatim, presumably to avoid copyright infringement claims in the hypothetical's frame, and in GP's rhetorical frame to present an analogy with the information-laundering powers of LLMs that their creators claim make their exploitation of unlicensed training data fair use.

The whole point of a search engine (as we've classically known them) is to index the web and respond to queries with a list of links that you will inspect and click through on. The whole point of an LLM chatbot tool is to eliminate those inspecting and clicking-through steps, becoming a one-stop shop for content whose substance was created by someone else. That's also the whole point of GP's hypothetical, which is why it works as an analogy.

---

There are substantially better arguments for search engines being legitimate fair use. Consider, for example, transformation. AI defenders will argue that these systems are transformative because they reshuffle elements of their input in their output, but that's clearly a much weaker form of transformation than one in which the transformed work has an entirely different nature and purpose, i.e. search engines vs. the results they return. Ultimately these technicality-based "nuh uh" arguments aren't going to save the practice of training AI on unlicensed data, because they are incompatible with the spirit of copyright law even if the novel nature of these technologies means the letter of said law can't quite nail them down yet.

If these arguments do succeed, it will be because the judicial/regulatory environment in which they were applied has been corrupted by capital.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by 8note on Thursday December 28, 2023 @02:29PM (#38797476)
A search engine takes an input string, a corpus of text, and returns a series of text that best comes next after the input string.

An LLM takes an input string a corpus of text, and returns a series of text that best comes after the next input string.

To get a paragraph of output, you run the search over and over again

Both the search and LLM reshuffle the inputs to the outputs.

If I'm describing the purpose of the LLM, it's got a wide number of usages. "Making my resume look more professional" or "be a crud api" or "reformat my ask into a api call to X service" or "give me a timeline of events surrounding Y with source links"

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by caconym_ on Thursday December 28, 2023 @02:41PM (#38797639)
An 18 wheeler travels on wheels. A shopping cart travels on wheels. A shopping cart does not require a license to operate, therefore an 18 wheeler does not require a license to operate. A shopping cart can be operated inside a grocery store, therefore an 18 wheeler can be operated inside a grocery store. A child can operate a shopping cart, therefore a child can operate an 18 wheeler.

If I'm describing the purpose of an 18 wheeler, it's got a wide number of usages. "Carry my chicken" or "carry my lettuce" or "carry my Cheetos". Or, simply, "carry my groceries".

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by fennecbutt on Thursday December 28, 2023 @09:04PM (#38801050)
>content whose substance was created by someone else

And how did the training data contribute to the content in any meaningful way? Inspiration isn't substance.

You think all fantasy writers gotta pay Tolkien estate bc so much of fantasy draws from his tropes? Lmao no.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by caconym_ on Thursday December 28, 2023 @10:57PM (#38801627)
> And how did the training data contribute to the content in any meaningful way? Inspiration isn't substance.

If training data is so unimportant, why not simply not use it and avoid the controversy? At the very least that would certainly fix the issue where the model demonstrates how "inspired" it is by NYT articles by reproducing them verbatim.

:)

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by riskable on Thursday December 28, 2023 @05:19PM (#38799440)
The reason why Google keeping entire digital copies of other people's copyrighted works is legal is because copyright is all about distribution rights. Any person can possess the entire works of Disney (without paying for them), for example and as long as they do not distribute those works they're 100% in the clear.

Possession is not a crime when it comes to copyright. It's not like physical things (e.g. drugs or guns) at all. This is why comparing copyright violations to theft is silly.

ChatGPT can absolutely keep verbatim copies of the entire works of basically anything and not run afoul of the law. When it regurgitates a small part of an article that's covered by fair use in theory but the truth is that fair use can only be determined by a judge in a court of law when someone is sued. It cannot be determined with any sort of certainty ahead of time. It's a legal defense, nothing more.

Summarizing content has been legal forever as well (see the other posts here talking about Cliff Notes and some similar products). That's not even fair use that's just like, people's opinions, man (legally speaking).

I don't think the NYT will get what they want out of this at all.

Re:NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT in... by fennecbutt on Thursday December 28, 2023 @09:00PM (#38801025)
>Any person can possess the entire works of Disney (without paying for them)

Man thinks piracy is legal