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Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by schiffern on Saturday December 23, 2023 @05:37AM (#38743168)

  >why is everybody using recuperators when a regenerator would be mechanically much simpler?
They exist, search for "ductless HRV."

They're simply a small fan that reverses every few minutes and a heat storage material. They also have wireless ones that coordinate the fan direction between them.

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by kragen on Saturday December 23, 2023 @05:54AM (#38743244)
thanks!

don't you need at least two fans and two chambers of heat storage material?

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by schiffern on Saturday December 23, 2023 @07:52AM (#38743885)
Yes, that's how the wireless versions work. One unit blows in while a second identical unit (located across the house) blows out, and they switch roughly every minute. This balances the airflow, so you don't get un-regenerated airflow "somewhere else" like you do if you use a single unit.

  "in... thermal regenerators, the hot and cold fluids pass through the same channels in the packing, alternately, both fluids washing the same surface area. In recuperators, the hot and cold fluids pass simultaneously through different but adjacent channels." https://www.thermopedia.com/content/1087/
A regenerative-type ERV alternates the flow direction of the air, using the packing material as a thermal "battery" to warm the incoming fresh air from the outgoing exhaust air.

While they are indeed simpler, my understanding is that they don't really perform well.

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by kragen on Sunday December 24, 2023 @08:37AM (#38753367)
this is great information, thank you!

i'm surprised there's no humidity recovery; i'd think that, with a regenerator, humidity recovery is unavoidable even if you don't want it. maybe you're talking about cases where humidity or ΔT is so low that you don't get any condensation? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38746150 points out that a little desiccant can solve that problem

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by mrspuratic on Saturday December 23, 2023 @08:55AM (#38744246)
I've just installed a pair of these standalone units on opposite sides of a mostly open-plan 40m² ground floor. They can run in intake/exhaust/cycle modes, and be paired as primary/secondary for contraflow.

Too early to see energy benefits yet, but one thing that /really/ helps already is kicking both units into intake when cooking on the hob with the hood fan extracting. I should probably finish that hood sensor (looks at sensor sitting on desk).

In trickle/night mode the rated performance is "up to 90%" (at 1.2W and 15m³/h in unspecified test conditions). These ones require a 165mm diameter hole, so the heat exchanger cross section is ~2.7 times the 100mm version, and presumably more efficient.

I also installed (refurb, old house) a recuperative MHVR upstairs. This type has two fans for separated permanent intake and exhaust channels. The alternative in my country is knocking 7000mm² holes in the walls (aka passive ventilation). I have to meet various building requirements as a refurb to qualify for energy upgrade grants.

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by schiffern on Saturday December 23, 2023 @09:34AM (#38744469)

  > one thing that /really/ helps already is kicking both units into intake when cooking on the hob with the hood fan extracting
Not sure how much good regeneration is doing[0], but it sounds like it put a band-aid on your problem of inadequate make-up air for the vent! :D

Do these standalone units recover heat only (HRV) or heat and humidity (ERV)?

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38743885

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by mrspuratic on Saturday December 23, 2023 @10:46AM (#38745046)
I have no external heat recovery system, so yes it's exactly zero while I'm cooking - but a reasonable way to maintain air quality in an open plan, one of my goals.

The house also has new external wall insulation and other upgrades, so it's rather more airtight than before (though not formally tested just yet). Otherwise they run in synchronised cycle mode for heat recovery and air movement.

I'm not well versed in all the subtleties of theory and current technology, but I don't think regenerative and true ERV go together. If condensation forms in the unit on the exhaust cycle I'd guess does contribute a little to the recovered heat?

These units are BSK Zephyrs, with one heat mass component (ceramic honeycomb) and one fan inline in a telescopic duct. To prevent condensation issues they are fitted with a 2° slope outwards, and a humidity sensor with settable thresholds to purge high humidity internal air at full rate (equivalent to about 1.2 air changes/h for me).

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by Open_erv on Saturday December 23, 2023 @12:39PM (#38746150)
They all are capable of doing so under some circumstances with limited efficiency, because as the air exits the house and cools down at some point water condenses out of the air onto the regenerator media. Then it evaps again when flow reverses.

However if you want maximal efficiency you want to add some zeolite 3A adsorbent, which you can sort of do yourself I am pretty sure. You just put some through a coffee grinder, put the regenerator in a garbage bag with it and shake it to get the powder inside the regenerator. It's not idea but it'll certainly help. I tried this with a thermal wheel of comparable size with silica gel and measured the result with AHT10 sensors and it worked pretty good actually.

Zeolite lasts longer but you need more. Obviously you gotta try not to get the powder everywhere by getting excess off etc.

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by mrspuratic on Saturday December 23, 2023 @01:29PM (#38746639)
Interesting. With EWI and internal insulation the telescopic duct is nearly maxed out as the total wall thickness is close to 500mm, but 50% of that is empty space. I though I might be able to get a secondary heat mass into that in future.
Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by Open_erv on Saturday December 23, 2023 @08:27PM (#38750170)
I don't like the telescopic ducts because they can leak into the wall cavity. There is nearly no point in adding more mass. It does increase efficiency but the typical regenerators are alumina which already have a lot of thermal mass. The problem is their surface area is too low. I made a simulator in python to evaluate various designs, and the efficiency of them is pretty poor. The main reason the fan reversal time is so long is the fans suck, they take a long time to accelerate, which affects average flow rate, the shorter the period the more time it takes to accelerate.

Once the thermal mass of the "batch" of air is relatively small compared to the thermal mass of the regenerator, adding more thermal mass doesn't help.

The reason you can't go to town with high surface area is viscous drag. The fans make a lot of noise when they have to work at high speed, which they have to do to produce higher pressures. Fan blade noise increases in proportion to the eigth power of blade velocity. So really really fast. So if you make the holes in the regenerator smaller and the walls thinner to increase surface area, you don't get enough flow.

The usual units really hobble at the best of times. If you calculate how much energy (which increases linearly with flow*efficiency) they save a year, they usually actually cost more in amortized total cost of ownership than they save.

The best thing is to redesign both the fan and regenerator, that's what I did.

There is a nice fan that's produced by a german company that I'm trying to get samples of but they are super slow.

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by kragen on Sunday December 24, 2023 @08:34AM (#38753349)
i think the solution to the viscous-drag problem is a fractal regenerator similar to a mammalian circulatory system, in which a branching tree of "artery" air passages feeds a set of "capillaries" distributed over a surface of high hausdorff-besicovitch dimension which separates the "arteries" from a second branching tree of "vein" air passages; this squares the circle of low air resistance (because the capillaries are short) with high heat flux (because the total surface area of the capillaries is large). if you have two counterflowing sets of capillaries instead of one, you have a rete mirabile recuperator

obviously this structure is not feasible to manufacture by conventional processes, but you can 3-d print it

cf. https://dercuano.github.io/notes/capillary-heat-exchanger.ht...

it seems crazy to me that people would use alumina as a regenerative medium for house ventilation; it's a pain to get into the shape you want, which makes it expensive in practice even though it's an abundant natural mineral. it does have an immense virtue as a regenerative medium, which is that it can withstand like 1750°, but if part of your house is over 1000° you have bigger problems to worry about than the efficiency of your hvac system. if you're trying to maximize the thermal mass of a stable solid per dollar, something like unfired clay is probably optimal, though it expands and contracts with humidity; lime mortar (quicklime and sand) avoids that problem. those are low thermal mass per kg; to optimize that, you'd probably want polypropylene instead (or paraffin wax, but it might melt)

unfired clay has significant moisture-adsorbent ability too, which is why it expands and contracts with humidity. muriate of lime is commonly used as both a (deliquescent) desiccant and a flocculant for clay colloids used as ceramic glazes; i'm not sure to what extent clay with muriate of lime in it can function as a solid desiccant

but maybe i'm missing some basic knowledge here, so plausibly these are stupid ideas; wikipedia is no substitute for experience

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by schiffern on Monday December 25, 2023 @05:33PM (#38766871)
Interesting. This is in concordance with my own thoughts.

The ideal space-filling "core" of a rete mirabile recuperator is (I argue) a checkerboard, with black and white squares flowing in the opposite direction.† This makes all adjacent channels opposite polarity (unlike a honeycomb) for maximum heat transfer, and also reduces internal drag and manufacturing complexity (unlike triangles). Mass manufacturing can be done via extrusion, or by gluing together 90° corrugated sheets. If the core consumes 80% of the total system volume this reduces 3D printing cost.

Trees typically branch 1-to-3, which is probably optimal because evolution. For an 54x54 grid that means 1458 endpoints, or 6.6 branchings. That's one 2-to-1 branching (common on the first "trunk" branch of a tree) followed by six 3-to-1 branchings, for seven total branchings. This is a typical value for a real biological tree, so we're probably moving in the right direction re:biomimicry.

In real biological trees the fluid flow slows as the branches get smaller, so it's probably good to emulate that.

† arguably a honeycomb shell-and-tube is more efficient geometrically, but it's non-symmetric and (more important) the manufacturing and rigidity/robustness is questionable

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by mrspuratic on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @09:36AM (#38772096)
Fluid dynamics is indeed a complex subject, I found this on my travels, it seems to be one of the more approachable and comprehensive guides: https://www.mcgillairflow.com/pdf/productlit/ductSysDesign_g...

Aside: paraffin wax is used in actuators, e.g. automatic green house window openers, on account of its impressive expansion. The MVHR I have also uses it for automatic "summer" bypass of the heat recovery path.

Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by kragen on Sunday December 24, 2023 @08:39AM (#38753374)
the idea with the adsorbent is that you can get humidity exchange even when the ΔT isn't low enough to get actual condensation?
Re:DIY ventilation heat exchanger (2010) by Open_erv on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @06:22PM (#38777165)
Yes, that's correct.