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Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by sgentle on Saturday April 21, 2012 @01:45PM (#3872364)
To me, what would be interesting about a world without cars (or even with cars, but vastly more attractive public transport) is that it would partly reverse a sad isolationist trend that's come along with the power and control given to us by modern technology.

I used to catch a bus every day through the city, and there were a lot of strange people on those trips. Gangs of 9 year old gangster kids drunk up the back. Little old ladies muttering racist slurs at asian students. A guy who hadn't showered in so long his clothes had gone partially transparent from the grease. I don't think I was ever in any danger, but it sure was uncomfortable sometimes. I work pretty close to home now (in fact, mostly at home), so it's not really an issue anymore. But strangely, I find myself missing that chance to interact with people who I didn't choose to interact with.

It seems like every time we get more power (like by inventing an engine that can move us around) we use it to get more control (now I can encase myself in a metal shield that prevents any accidental congress with the outside world).

A bunch of technology has gone the same way. Efficient worldwide shipping and postage means you don't need to go outside to shop. Communication moving online means you can block people you don't like rather than have to deal with them. OKCupid means you can pre-screen your dates to avoid accidentally meeting someone unpalatable. You can GPS track your kids so they won't ever end up lost or at the wrong sort of party.

And those are all good things that give you more control over your environment. But they also isolate you. Unknown experiences are fundamentally scary; so scary that we feel more afraid of walking in a dark alley than we do of heart disease. Like every generation before us, we strike out against danger with the power of our tools. But our dangers are, at this point, largely invented. We're getting to a point where instead of being safe, we'll just be cocooned in a real-world filter bubble, where we never have to fear the unknown, uncontrollable, unsanitised real world that gets forced on us when we get on a bus or walk around a city. I suspect, for all our newfound safety, we'll just feel a bit unsatisfied.

I guess I've just argued myself out of believing that the future without cars is ever really going to happen. Maybe there'll be a virtual bus MMO.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by sliverstorm on Saturday April 21, 2012 @02:43PM (#3872576)
Unknown experiences are fundamentally scary; so scary that we feel more afraid of walking in a dark alley than we do of heart disease.

Bah, that isn't the fear of the unknown vs. the fear of the known. It is immediate, physical fear (in thirty seconds those gang members are going to mug me) vs. eventual, abstract fear (in twenty years, something might go wrong inside me).

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by gonzo on Saturday April 21, 2012 @03:18PM (#3872709)
when something does, eventually, "go wrong", it makes all the fear of gang attack seem trivial.

(I survived an ascending aortic dissection in Aug 09.)

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by sliverstorm on Saturday April 21, 2012 @03:21PM (#3872718)
Naturally, but that doesn't change the fact that distant threats are less fearsome than immediate ones, and that abstract threats are also less fearsome.

To be clear, when I say "abstract threats" I mean things we cannot properly think about. We know what it feels like to get punched, and we have some idea what it feels like to be stabbed, but we have no idea how to assign fear to something like chemotherapy until it happens to us. We know it is Bad(tm), but not the same way we know getting cut with a knife is bad.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by enjo on Saturday April 21, 2012 @02:16PM (#3872462)
You pretty much summed up why modern suburbs are the way they are.
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by donw on Saturday April 21, 2012 @05:36PM (#3873086)
You've done a great job of summing up one of the reasons that public transit in the US is as bad as it is.

My goal is to safely get from Point A to Point B, and I don't want to spend a lot of time waiting around at Point A, or sitting and waiting on the way to Point B.

We have three goals here, in order of importance. Let's call them safety, convenience, and speed.

Taking a bus with a bunch of drunken hooligans doesn't help much with that first, and most important, goal. I want my transportation to be safe, and the high crime rates on public transportation in the US speak for themselves.

Interesting experiences are great. Getting mugged isn't, and while I'm not a prime target (muggers don't usually pick on two-hundred-pound guys that spend a lot of time in the gym), five loud, drunk people in a gang is not the sort of situation I want to be around regularly.

Especially if I'm carrying a $1500 laptop and a $600 smartphone.

Convenience, at least here in SF, is also pretty miserable. I have not once had a bus arrive on-time. The trains are usually on-schedule, but conveniently frequent only during peak hours, and they only cover a small portion of the greater Bay Area. Don't even get me started on CalTrain.

If I want to meet somebody and I need to take a bus, I need to add an extra half-hour window around my journey. If you assume a normal tech-person salary, that lost half-hour makes it cheaper to take a taxi for most journeys.

Speed is good for trains; busses, on the other hand, live at the whim of traffic.

Japan gets all of these right in its major cities. I have never once felt threatened on a train, and delays are few and far between.

The tradeoff they make is in manpower -- station employees are everywhere. We tend to not like hiring lots of people in the US, and so public transit stations might have one or two visible employees, and certainly not visible, uniformed personnel at every platform.

This is why cars are as popular as they are. In SF, if I want to go from Pacific Heights to the Inner Sunset, a journey by bus-and-train pushes about an hour. By car, it's about fifteen minutes.

In my car, I have a stereo, air conditioning, and a clean, comfortable seat. Public transit, on the other hand, is pretty filthy here in SF, and for some odd reason they jack the heat up enough so that I need to do a little striptease whenever I get on a train.

All minor inconveniences, sure, but it adds up quickly, and what do I get in return? I'm late, have lost money in the long run, and arrive more often than not in a worse mood than when I started.

I really want working public transit here in the US, but the way things are going, I don't see that happening for at least another decade.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by fiddly_bits on Saturday April 21, 2012 @06:44PM (#3873228)
You have many of the same observations as me, but form a different conclusion. Although, one thing: you say, "My goal is to safely get from Point A to Point B..." Cars are a great way to kill 30 or 40 thousand people a year. Not very safe. And the quality of service (and riders) will surely improve on public transportation as more people use it, don't you think? Japan seems to prove that.
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by kstenerud on Saturday April 21, 2012 @10:27PM (#3873711)
The quality of service will never reach the level of Japan. Transit operators have it easy there because people don't vandalize and they don't litter. This means that your maintenance costs are very low and it's more economical to buy high quality, comfortable seating.

As well, transit is only good for getting you around in the cities. Once you get out to "inaka", a car is all but a requirement, much like in North America.

This "world without cars" is a nice pipe dream, but the reality is that no matter how good your transit system, it's still a huge time sink to use it. The only time it becomes faster than a car is if you live in a dense city with poor traffic flow, and that accounts for a tiny percentage of the world population. That's also why it's only the pampered urbanites who dream of a carless world.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by wheels on Saturday April 21, 2012 @11:41PM (#3873840)
> if you live in a dense city with poor traffic flow, and that accounts for a tiny percentage of the world population

That's false. Most of the world's population now lives in cities. Deciding what percentage of those fall below the threshold of "poor" traffic-flow wise is difficult, but it's not "tiny". (http://www.gizmag.com/go/7613/)

Cars beget cars. The reason people need cars in a lot of the US is because they moved somewhere that they need a car to get to. People talk about the amount of time that things take without a car forgetting that said problem was created by cars in the first place. In places where most folks don't have cars you have a small grocery store every few blocks rather than a large one every few miles. The demographics of public transit differ from society at large because the well-off drive cars.

I grew up in American suburbia and have lived in Europe for the last decade. The amount of time required to say, go shopping, or commute to work has remained broadly similar in the half-dozen areas I've lived in, though the distances have not.

Progressively moving away from cars is largely a cultural rather than technological problem. Some well-done urban planning (including structuring energy prices to favor more efficient means) and a few decades to execute it could drastically shift the balance to where we have far fewer cars.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by kstenerud on Sunday April 22, 2012 @12:53AM (#3874017)
The generic "city" is not a very useful term here. How many people are there? There's a big difference between New York and Maza. What is the topography like? Is it sprawling like Phoenix? Or dense like Tokyo? How much density, population, and infrastructure is required to make a convenient and economical transit system? I'd wager far too much to displace cars in any meaningful way except in the largest cities.

Cars are used because they are versatile. Every other form of transport has far more narrow use cases.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by trothamel on Saturday April 21, 2012 @09:11PM (#3873564)
While trains appear to be slightly safer, the difference isn't that big, at least here in the US.

According to http://www.transit-safety.volpe.dot.gov/publications/sso/CRS... , commuter rail kills .09 people per 10 million passenger miles.

According to http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx , cars kill 1.14 people per 100 million passenger miles - or .114 people per 10 million passenger miles.

That's not a huge difference - I actually wonder if the more direct routing and door-to-door service allowed by cars could make up that difference entirely.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by _delirium on Saturday April 21, 2012 @09:20PM (#3873587)
> commuter rail kills .09 people per 10 million passenger miles.

The non-suicide number is quite a bit lower, though, by (probably) an order of magnitude. Pedestrians on the tracks in an area they aren't supposed to be, who are struck and killed by trains, are classified in the bucket category of "trespasser" fatalities. Unless they left a note or something it's usually impossible to conclusively say that they were suicides, but the assumption is that the vast majority of trespasser fatalities are suicides, because the number of people struck while trying to steal things or take illegal shortcuts is relatively small. And, trespasser fatalities account for 88% of total commuter-rail fatalities (p. 13 in that report). All other commuter-rail fatalities (passengers, collisions with automobiles, etc.) add up to 0.011 people per 10 million passenger miles.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by trothamel on Saturday April 21, 2012 @10:03PM (#3873669)
The way I'm reading table 18, of the 526 commuter-rail fatalities, at most 285 of them are suicide-by-train. As you point out, trespassing is a wide category - it includes things like highway-rail collisions. That 285 number might be high, as it also includes things like a child straying onto the tracks that was hit by a train.

I'm not sure it matters. The automobile statistics seem to include various methods of suicide involving cars. If rail inspires suicide, that's a safety problem.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by _delirium on Saturday April 21, 2012 @10:09PM (#3873679)
> The automobile statistics seem to include various methods of suicide involving cars.

I'm not sure they include them equally, though. The most obvious way of killing yourself on train tracks is standing in front of a train, but the most obvious way of killing yourself on a road usually does not involve a car, but involves jumping from a bridge (which doesn't get counted as an automobile fatality).

> If rail inspires suicide, that's a safety problem.

I'm not too sure about that one. If there are a significant number of people who, absent trains, wouldn't kill themselves, that would be significant. But I would guess a larger proportion are just choosing a suicide modality, and if it weren't trains, it'd be jumping from the Golden Gate Bridge, taking pills, etc. It's hard to come up with any real data for that counterfactual, though. I suppose a blunt correlational approach would be to see if there's any correlation between availability of commuter rail and suicide rates, after controlling for other confounding variables. I would guess that there isn't one, but could be wrong.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by trothamel on Saturday April 21, 2012 @10:48PM (#3873749)
You're just as dead if you jump from a railroad bridge, though.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/tdreport_final.pdf

is a Federal Railroad Administration report that breaks down the cause of trespasser fatalities. This isn't 100% comparable to the previous report, but it does claim that 23% of trespasser fatalities are suicides.

Appendix H breaks down the reported fatalities - it looks like walking and sleeping (drunk?) on tracks each claim more lives than suicide.

One really interesting story is the massive increase in car safety. Deaths per 100M vehicle miles have dropped from 1.73 in 1994 to about 1.09 in 2010.

Fundamentally, I'm not sure any of this matters. We're talking a very small difference in safety - to the point where convenience is probably more important to most people.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by Derbasti on Sunday April 22, 2012 @01:45AM (#3874104)
Japan is not alone with this. Just about all of (central) Europe has excellent public transportation, too.
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by DanI-S on Sunday April 22, 2012 @02:12PM (#3875569)
> high crime rates on public transportation in the US speak for themselves.

This isn't because riding on a shared, public vehicle turns people into hooligans. If you catch public transport in the US, you see a cross-section of people who are too young, old, poor or mentally ill to own a car. Naturally, there will be more crime.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by replax on Sunday April 22, 2012 @10:43PM (#3876980)
The thing which would really annoy me about having to use a car everyday and, in total, spending a considerable time of my life driving it, is that you're doing just that, driving.

On public transport, you can read the news, write mails, write docs, read a book, do other things as you please, while still arriving at the location you want to go to, albeit probably a little slower (as you have to wait for the train/bus/tram and possibly have to walk to/from the station etc.).

I have never been to the US, so i cannot comment on the comparative part, though.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by greggman on Sunday April 22, 2012 @03:04AM (#3874218)
I don't expect to ever see safe public transportation in the USA in my lifetime. Our culture sucks. Japan works partly because like many other cultures in that area it's a community comes before the individual culture.

We've put up with crime for so long in the USA we've forgotten places actually exist without most of it. We've gotten so used to it we think it's normal to "avoid dark alleys" to "pull out your car stereo and don't leave anything visible, even a jacket or risk getting your car broken into" to "don't go to those parts of town"

None of those apply to certain countries.

now watch the defensive replies :(

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by nvoorhies on Sunday April 22, 2012 @04:31AM (#3874349)
Avoiding dark alleys is certainly normal advice in Japan as well. http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/201112/13/73/b0015373_19495370.jp...
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by replax on Sunday April 22, 2012 @10:37PM (#3876963)
While it is officially advised, as many things in japan are, they are by no means mandatory. In japan you might just as well see a sign saying "don't go out in the rain, it's dangerous".

in japan, i've been to plenty of dark alleys during night time, visibly carrying cameras etc. and i've yet to be encounter anything bad. i think it is fairly safe to say, that japan is a LOT saver than most parts of the world.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by a3camero on Sunday April 22, 2012 @11:59AM (#3875140)
Not really a defensive reply, because I don't live in the US, but across the border in Canada we have a very similar culture and very safe public transportation. I grew up in downtown-ish Toronto and never saw a crime. There are crimes, just not too many that people fear taking public transportation. A typical subway ride in Toronto has plenty of people in suits. Bus transport in other cities in Ontario is also quite safe.
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by swah on Saturday April 21, 2012 @03:00PM (#3872657)
If you're truly introspective you can live in a building and never say hello to your neighbors. Everyone is in the same place but minding their business, listening their favorite music, etc.
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by goggles99 on Saturday April 21, 2012 @06:22PM (#3873198)
Man has traditionally (going back 10 thousands of years) not had the type of interaction that you mention. Civilization brought man close together in this modern era. Tract housing, public transportation, ETC. History shows us that is more in mans nature to be largely isolated except for a small group of people. Even when living amongst other people - traditionally people were much more spread out than now and did not interact with those outside of their small group very often

It is clear that man prefers to travel with privacy or cars would never have succeeded where alternatives exist. The convenience factor is huge too.

I prefer the freedom to go wherever, whenever and without some crazy person screaming at me on some bus or subway somewhere.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by wissler on Saturday April 21, 2012 @06:20PM (#3873190)
"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." --Ayn Rand