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Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by jseliger on Thursday December 21, 2023 @09:57AM (#38721191)
Homelessness is a housing problem: https://seliger.com/2022/06/29/homelessness-is-a-housing-pro...:

there’s a naive, common view that homelessness is primarily about “mental illness” and “drugs” and other potential contributors to homelessness; while those factors exist, the lower the cost of housing, the easier it is for someone on the margin of being housed or being homeless to stay housed. The lower the cost, the easier it is for family, SSDI, Housing Choice Vouchers (HCV, formerly called Section 8), and other income supports to keep a person housed. Intuitively, this makes sense: it’s easier to cover $750 in rent than $2,000 in rent, even for someone with mental illness and drug problems. As the cost of housing goes up, the number of people who fall from the margins of being “housed” to being “homeless” goes concomitantly up. While mental illness and drug abuse are factors, they’re secondary to housing costs, and they’re really red herrings relative to overall housing costs and ongoing housing shortages across America.

The homelessness problem is intractable without zoning reform and the removal of barriers to new housing construction, whether those barriers are height maximums, parking space minimums, or “neighborhood input” or “community input.” Those last two are functionally barriers to building anything, anywhere. We’ve worked on Los Angeles Prop HHH proposals, and, despite that Proposition raising $1.2 billion for housing, not much has materially changed. Why? California makes building anything, anywhere, astonishingly difficult. Until we can increase the supply of housing, we’re going to see homelessness problems.

Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday December 21, 2023 @10:16AM (#38721437)
Seattle has a lot more construction than LA and SF, and it’s zoning is a lot more flexible (no parking minimums), yet we have an outsized share of the unhoused problem (on a per capita basis, larger than LA or SF). I’m not saying housing policy isn’t a blocker, but it can’t be the only one, we can’t seem to build our way privately out of the problem at least here.

More drug addiction services are needed before we can really treat this problem. Even putting them up in hotels is incredibly expensive because the damage that has to be repaired.

Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by mrbgty on Thursday December 21, 2023 @10:29AM (#38721663)
Does that mean there's a lot of empty houses in Seattle?
Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday December 21, 2023 @10:30AM (#38721680)
No. All the new housing is consumed quickly by new arrivals who aren’t unhoused. Build it and they will come, induced demand applies as much to housing as it does to freeways.
Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by fukoyize on Thursday December 21, 2023 @12:01PM (#38723116)
Speaking from personal experience people move to Seattle not because there’s large supply of housing but because it is where there are high paying jobs. It’s the only reason I’m in Seattle and I can say the same for several coworkers, so wouldn’t call it induced demand.

People move to where they can make a decent living, which increasingly means big cities. Saying it’s induced demand makes it sound like it’s insatiable but really it just the ratio of housing to high paying jobs is way out of whack.

Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday December 21, 2023 @12:13PM (#38723298)
It’s induced demand in the sense that the housing enables those jobs, or to say, less people would come here for those high paying jobs if the housing market was more bonkers like in SF or Hong Kong. If they weren’t building housing at a crazy clip, Seattle would be less appealing even to you who is just here for the job.
Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by mrbgty on Thursday December 21, 2023 @10:39AM (#38721803)
That demand can't go to infinity, though, right? I would think the new arrivals would be stimulating factor to build more houses, on the economy, produce new tax dollars for roads, etc.
Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday December 21, 2023 @10:54AM (#38722063)
No, it can’t go to infinity, and in fact, we are only limited by the USA population plus anyone who can immigrate. Are you suggesting that Seattle build its way out of the nation’s homeless problem on its own?

Does everyone have the right to live in certain popular cities? This is an important moral question I guess, because our housing crisis isn’t evenly distributed.

Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by mrbgty on Thursday December 21, 2023 @11:03AM (#38722218)
No, I don't think I'm suggesting that Seattle build a house for everyone in the US + immigrate; only maybe that there is some curve where building more doesn't result in increased demand.

I don't see why some would have more of a right than others to live in a place on a baseline level and at the same time I don't think it would be right to force people out of their homes just to make it fair to everyone to have a chance to live there.

If a place is desirable, the people who were already there are more likely going to be the ones who have been contributing towards making it a desirable place to live than ones who were not already there.

Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday December 21, 2023 @11:14AM (#38722396)
Everyone has the legal right in the USA to live anywhere else in the USA, we don’t have a residency or hukou system. But without some other limiter, like price via supply and demand, this legal right alone is unworkable.

Seattle is a destination not just for rich techies, but also for the unhoused. Spend any amount of time at the greyhound bus station and this will be obvious, or take a greyhound across country, people get on at prisons with an open bus ticket, if they have no where else to go, they will head toward one of the west coast cities to survive, and who can blame them?

So we have a net influx of professionals with money who want to live in a popular city, and unhoused people who want to live in a city with more generous social services and mild weather so living outside won’t kill them.

On top of that, you have the residents that were already there, feeling like they are being attacked on both sides: rich young professionals pricing them out of the housing market, and poor unhoused neighbors stealing their Amazon packages and pooping on the sidewalk.

So how does building more housing alone get us out of this cycle? The rich professionals will gobble up the new housing, and tell their friends in the Midwest to come move to where the fun is. The unhoused neighbors couldn’t afford that house anyways, but they might be lucky and eventually score a free apartment or tiny home from the various social services in the area. So they move from their camping spot, but someone else has just arrived on a greyhound to take their spot over.

Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by mrbgty on Thursday December 21, 2023 @11:34AM (#38722712)
Maybe building more doesn't get your out of the cycle. Maybe it helps. Personally, I've only visited Seattle once and don't have any desire to return to live or visit. I would likely be happy taking up space in the MidWest that the rich young professionals are leaving behind.

I only think that there's usually a balance to things that sometimes require a lot of time to pass in order to correct.

Anyway, I appreciate all of your responses and your perspective.

Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday December 21, 2023 @02:44PM (#38725751)
I think not wanting to live in Seattle is fine, there is much to offer in the Midwest, although I lived in Toledo almost a lifetime ago. More to the point, we are pretty full, our growth should have ended and we should be losing people ATM until we level off, we can’t grow like this forever. It’s time for Charlotte and Raleigh to grow, or maybe Cincinnati. Or Texas. It wouldn’t be Seattle’s loss, we can stand to be less popular for awhile.
Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by jjav on Thursday December 21, 2023 @09:34PM (#38730247)
> only maybe that there is some curve where building more doesn't result in increased demand

In theory sure, if the supply approaches infinity then at some point an additional housing unit has zero value. But these are houses, which in practice are expensive to build so supply will never approach infinity.

Can you name at least one US city where housing used to be expensive and they built so much that it resulted in excess supply and a consequence it is now cheap to live there (and the city continues to thrive - not talking about bankrupt ghost towns)?

As far as I know (but curious to see if I'm wrong) there isn't any case where that point in the curve has been crossed.

The densest area in the country is Manhattan, not known for cheap housing. So if even the densest housing area has not crossed that point in the curve, it's an argument that maybe it's just not possible to do so in practice.

Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by gazelle21 on Thursday December 21, 2023 @10:27AM (#38721628)
The big elephant in the room, is those who have homes aren't ever going to let go of their homes for anything else than 100+% profit, it's in their best interest to not allow any other competition. Neighborhoods that argue over inches of fences and HOA colors, routinely come together to block apartments and other housing.

This holiday season, family members will be openly bragging about how their home is worth 1.7 million, which they purchased for 300k. The room full of apartment/roommate living student debt loaded will get very quiet.

Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by edgyquant on Thursday December 21, 2023 @12:18PM (#38723383)
I don’t see why neighborhoods should have to allow more homes to be built. America is huge and mostly empty, there’s tons of land to build on before we start trying to ruin existing communities. When I hear this it just sounds like trying to set the precedent of screwing people out of their land. Your mention of profit sounds like trying to do so without fair compensation, which currently is at least required for eminent domain.
Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by baseline-shift on Thursday December 21, 2023 @12:18PM (#38723386)
Yes, there's lots of houses in suburbs with empty bedrooms. If there was an incentive for boomers to rent rooms in their houses like in the 1920s. But that is risky for the boomers.

How about to reduce risk, but reward lucky ownwes, a lot of houses too big for aging boomers, could have incentive payments to sell to HUD to convert into rooming houses, with lockable bedrooms rented separately, and the shared kitchens and bathrooms cleaned by HUD, and quick evictions for any troublesome renters. So more like renting at a YMCA or backpackers' hostel, ideal for the working poor.

Re:US homelessness up 12% from 2022, hits highest level sinc... by pandaman on Thursday December 21, 2023 @12:41PM (#38723753)
This theory is always posted in these threads but there is no answer how come the places with the most expensive real estate have no homeless. Aspen, Hamptons, Malibu, Beverly Hills, Martha's Vineyard etc. etc. do not have homeless encampments, which should have been huge according to this theory.

The trick it uses is introducing a continuity with the "easier" term. There is no such thing in reality. If you have no income you won't be renting either $1000 nor $10000 apartment despite the former being "easier" to afford. And if you have income you will move to the housing you can afford and won't be hanging under an overpass just to piss off the landlords.