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Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by gchamonlive on Saturday December 09, 2023 @04:52AM (#38580334)
That is a fallacy. The artists tend to gain with it, for one piracy boosts concert sales (https://torrentfreak.com/piracy-boosts-concert-ticket-sales-...). Box office revenues are hurt but the last Hollywood strikes just showed us the corporations couldn't care less about the artists.

Only business models that rely on monopolies are harmed.

Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by WendyTheWillow on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:02AM (#38580399)
It wouldn’t be a fallacy, it’d just be wrong, except it’s not wrong, and very basic concept that you can’t eat public goodwill demonstrates why.

And the entire concept of property is built on monopoly. Are you saying you don’t believe in property?

Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by gchamonlive on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:25AM (#38580555)
What are you talking about?

A fallacy is a "mistaken belief", so of course it is wrong. And you should look more into the concept of free riding. For that a good introduction would be The philosophers arms episode about free riding.

And what is that about private property? Where did that come from? We are talking about different concepts here, it is about markets and business models. As long as we don't honestly debate how outdated our modes of consumption are, piracy would be a natural response to artificial scarcity.

Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by WendyTheWillow on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:29AM (#38580576)
That’s not what a fallacy is defined as, and are you seriously unable to see how private property is relevant to copyright law?
Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by gchamonlive on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:44AM (#38580673)
Rest assured, I am not defending piracy. Pointing out flawed reasoning is not the same as defending what it is criticising.

My point is that piracy is a natural response to a predatory practice. And that is what I think, that the current state of how the market is configured is anticonsumer, and therefore piracy is a natural response to it. It's not a matter of who is right or wrong. Everything is less than ideal in this whole affair.

Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by WendyTheWillow on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:52AM (#38580731)
Natural things can be immoral, and the “state of the market” has no impact on the morality of piracy. There is no justification for lying, misrepresentation, breaking your word, or knowingly benefiting from ill gotten gains, given the immensely low stakes involved in listening to a particular song or watching a particular tv show.
Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by gchamonlive on Saturday December 09, 2023 @06:09AM (#38580853)
Yes, that is all true and is also valid for the big businesses that lie, steal and use their weight to exploit society. I am glad we agree!
Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by jampekka on Saturday December 09, 2023 @09:30AM (#38582191)
> knowingly benefiting from ill gotten gains

Who decides what is "morally" ill gained? There's quite a good case that benefiting without work, e.g. through capital gains, is ill gained.

Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by WendyTheWillow on Saturday December 09, 2023 @01:38PM (#38584408)
The social contract does. It would be bad if people throughout society just straight up ignored the concepts of ownership and copyright law, and all of the things you enjoy would not be made. However, by ignoring that and pirating it anyway, you're becoming a "free rider" who benefits from the contract but doesn't abide by it.
Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by jampekka on Saturday December 09, 2023 @04:07PM (#38586106)
The content of the social contract is whatever the members of the society accept. If a law is widely broken it's not really a part of the contract anymore.

Profiting from ownership without working (free riding of its own) is a questionable and often questioned item of a social contract.

Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by johnnyanmac on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:05PM (#38586563)
>If a law is widely broken it's not really a part of the contract anymore.

so rising physical theft over the pandemic means that stealing is legal? School shootings are going to be legal in the US overtime? What a horrible model for a social contract.

>Profiting from ownership without working (free riding of its own) is a questionable and often questioned item of a social contract.

Sure. But fact is that CEOs do do a lot of work to direct companies. We can question if that deserve whatever their pay is or their competency, but I hope no one thinks CEOs literally sit around doing nothing all day. Can we at least agree that burning a company down to the ground takes a non-zero effort?

Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by jampekka on Saturday December 09, 2023 @06:12PM (#38587161)
Law is not the same as the social contract.

Stockholders profit from ownership. CEO's salary is a salary (although stock and options maybe not).

Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by WendyTheWillow on Saturday December 09, 2023 @11:54PM (#38589202)
> The content of the social contract is whatever the members of the society accept.

No. The content of the social contract is whatever benefits those who adhere to the social contract. It's not a popular vote, what is good isn't up to what the most people think it is.

Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by johnnyanmac on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:01PM (#38586528)
>Pointing out flawed reasoning is not the same as defending what it is criticising.

pointing out flawed reasoning with flawed reasoning is well, a fallacy by your words?

Your link there is an obvious one: it doesn't take into account colluding data over if the most pirated stuff comes from the most popular artists who have the most demand for tours. It doesn't take into account artists who can't afford tours (so, most of them) and how too much piracy will just get them cut out of the publisher's already crappy deal.

>My point is that piracy is a natural response to a predatory practice.

okay, I believe piracy would exist even if media was dirt cheap and we were in an economic boom. Some people just don't value media and if they want to take the time to pirate it over spending the money, they would. I'm pretty tired of the Just World Fallacy here that people never steal out of convenience.

Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by Juliate on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:24AM (#38580550)
Are you saying that there's no difference in nature between physical and immaterial? Or that intellectual property and physical property are the same, with the same working principles, and follow the same rules?
Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by WendyTheWillow on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:31AM (#38580589)
Nope!
Re:If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing by johnnyanmac on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:08PM (#38586586)
There in fact are. And I think it's silly how people always resort to physical metaphors whenever the digital realities inconvenience them. And vice versa.

Ditigal media isn't physical, and in this case the physical media was on a closed ecosystem and attached to a server to stream or at least check in to verify. You wouldn't need all this with a plain ol' DVD, but you got advantadeges in that that movie played on any PS device you logged into.

If you want DRM free digital media, don't buy the above.