News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by bedris on Tuesday April 17, 2012 @11:58PM (#3856409)
Two lines from the article:

Scientists and engineers expand the size of the economic pie; lawyers mostly work to divide it up differently. Whenever possible, work to be a person who creates things, instead of a person who tries to take stuff created by someone else. There is an infinite amount of work in science because the universe is big and we don’t really understand it and we probably never will. New answers to questions in science yields more questions.

Greenspun makes and attend to his discussion of what grad school in the sciences is like, especially this, his main point: “Adjusted for IQ, quantitative skills, and working hours, jobs in science are the lowest paid in the United States.”

In other words, science is good for society but bad for the individual, from a purely economic standpoint.

Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by wenxun on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @12:48AM (#3856540)
My friends and I build a website for scientists to discover & share journal articles that are worth reading, to discuss scientific ideas that are worth spreading, and to connect with people who share similar interests: http://www.pubup.org/ . Please let me know what you think of the idea and the website. Thanks!
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by beambot on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @01:18AM (#3856628)
The idea is great, but just so you know... my experience in academia (anecdotal) suggests that Mendeley already has a pretty substantial lead: http://www.mendeley.com/
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by wildtype on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @06:38AM (#3857310)
Me and my friend use facebook, twitter, and (mostly) have appoinment to share interesting paper to read. Discussing paper offline are the reason why we meet. Haha..
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by wenxun on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @01:23AM (#3856639)
True, but it seems to me that Mendeley and us are addressing different aspects of the same problem
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by beambot on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @01:37AM (#3856664)
Can you elaborate? The frontpage of PubUp seems strikingly similar to the "papers" page at Mendeley: http://www.mendeley.com/research-papers/

I'm completely open to an alternative service (or even a complementary one). So... I guess what I'm trying to say: Give me, one of your intended customers, a compelling use scenario or value-add proposition that might compel me to switch.

Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by shadowsun7 on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @02:48AM (#3856818)
There is an infinite amount of work in science because the universe is big and we don’t really understand it and we probably never will.

There may be an infinite amount of work in science, but there is a finite (and very unevenly distributed) number of grants. Your conclusion rings true to me.

Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by kingkawn on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @12:58AM (#3856572)
What does "adjusted for IQ" mean?
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by jleader on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @01:25AM (#3856642)
I think it means that if you created a model that used IQ, quantitative skills, and working hours as inputs and tried to predict pay across all jobs in the US, it would predict that science jobs should pay higher than they actually do. Which leaves open the question of whether those variables are actually the most predictive of pay levels in non-science jobs; I suspect not.
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by roel_v on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @04:17AM (#3857016)
It means normalizing a certain data set for the IQ that the subjects from whom these data points were taken have. In other words, adjusting one property of something be an amount relative to some other property of that something. This is done in cases where it is suspected that this one property influences the other. In this case, the assumption (quite reasonably, imo) is that (in the aggregate) people who are smarter make more money.
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by Daniel_Newby on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @01:19AM (#3856630)
It means comparing people in different jobs who have the same IQ.
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by kingkawn on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @03:45AM (#3856957)
Haven't we reached the point yet where the whole idea of IQ testing is pretty discredited? And adjusting for IQ, meaning that someone is smart therefore they are expected to earn more money? It sounds like "taking into account these variables, and introducing this ridiculous one to allow me to adjust the outcomes as needed."
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by roel_v on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @04:15AM (#3857010)
Well if you don't agree that somebody with an IQ of 120 can be reasonably expected to be better at making money, and in the aggregate people with that IQ do actually make more, than somebody with an IQ of 80, then you have such a radically different view from the mainstream that any discussion is pointless.

FYI, adjusting for certain variables is a fundamental aspect of statistics. All studies in social sciences and economics of real-world data do so, because no real-world effect can be isolated to the point that it can be measured independently.

"Haven't we reached the point yet where the whole idea of IQ testing is pretty discredited?"

What? No, of course not. Are you saying that there are no people who are smarter than others?

Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by bgilroy26 on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @09:54AM (#3857893)
IQ is not synonymous with intelligence, it is married to the 20th century philosophy of psychology and history of testing methods.

For IQ to simply mean the intelligence scale normalized so that average intelligence = 100 would take a big marketing effort amongst the education and psychology communities.

Even if it were divorced from the twists and turns of its historical development, it seems pretty clear that at it's best IQ can aggregate the values of creativity, lateral thinking, calculation, memory-retrieval, memory-storage, memory-organization, (even, despite tester's best efforts) domain knowledge together and replace them with one number.

I think that some of the "everybody learns differently!" stuff has jumped the fence and become an old wives' tale, but there has to be a happy medium between assigning someone a 40 column printout to summarize their intelligence and slapping one number on it.

[This is not to mention all of the shift in emphasis away from intelligence towards results and output based partially on Outliers, and partially on the idea that if you praise kids for an inherent trait that they have no control over that they will stop playing to win and start playing not-to-lose.]

Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by roel_v on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @10:20AM (#3858035)
I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me? Yes of course there are various definitions and measurement methods of 'IQ' and 'intelligence' and one can define all of them in various ways. Exact definitions aren't interesting for the current purposes. What I said was, some people are smarter than others, even when considering orthogonal traits. If we hypothetically consider 'intelligence' as a combination of trait A, B and C, and we choose A, B and C carefully enough so that we can score or normalize each of them to a scale of 0-10, then Alice with a score of 8 on each of them is more intelligent than Bob who scores 4 on each of them. Now in the margin you can argue who is more intelligent when the scores are 5-8-4 and 5-4-8 but that doesn't take away from the point.

It's not like we're talking about one specific methodology for measuring IQ. The whole argument is in the context of the OP arguing that correcting for intelligence is necessary for making a meaningful comparison between wages earned (basically, it's discounting for opportunity cost). Which is totally reasonable and obvious.

Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by bgilroy26 on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @06:00PM (#3860455)
I think we were agreeing
Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by kingkawn on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @12:47PM (#3858866)
I don't think I made the argument that being functionally disabled is meaningless, but straw men live in all discussions at some point.

My argument is that above average and even extraordinary intelligence have no correlation to money making. Smart people live in poverty all the time. To say that expectations of earned income should be adjusted for IQ is meaningless in that context because the adjustment would be zero. Making money doesn't derive from general intelligence, but from how it is applied and luck. There are many smart technical people on this message board who are clearly lucky that the world is in the middle of a massive expansion of technically complicated economic areas like apps and programming in general. It allows them to achieve wealth that otherwise is not a predetermined given.

When I refer to IQ testing I refer to the concept of a universalized IQ test that can, without cultural bias, give an objective measure of intelligence.

Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by roel_v on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @03:35PM (#3859805)
"My argument is that above average and even extraordinary intelligence have no correlation to money making."

Well you're objectively wrong. Go to your national data office and look at income vs education (using education as a proxy for intelligence is not perfect but works OK enough for this purpose). You will see strong correlations between the two. (not perfectly linear, and not perfectly correlated, but strong enough to be not random). Look at any data set of reasonably stable and free countries that have these two data points, and you will find the same.

"Smart people live in poverty all the time."

Anecdote != data.

Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by Daniel_Newby on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @12:24PM (#3858737)
> Haven't we reached the point yet where the whole idea of IQ testing is pretty discredited?

No, the opposite! Throw together any list of questions requiring intellectual ability, on any subjects you choose (making sure to have a wide range of difficulty). Use the list to test a few thousand people selected at random from the same society. Perform principal components analysis (a type of statistical cross correlation) on the answers. The answers will turn out to correlate with a single characteristic of the individual test takers. This common factor is labeled g, general intelligence. There is virtually no sign of multiple intelligences or other factors, just one honking big signal for the g factor.

> And adjusting for IQ, meaning that someone is smart therefore they are expected to earn more money?

There have been large studies of people from the general population, with the scientists measuring every data point they can lay their hands on. It turns out the only factor that significantly affects adult income is IQ. Earned income is almost totally uncorrelated with race, skin color, culture, family wealth, family social rank, location of residence, school system, characteristics of siblings, and so forth. IQ also strongly predicts criminality.

Studies of twins separated at birth show huge IQ correlations between identical twins, but IQ correlations between fraternal twins are no greater than for sibling pairs from different pregnancies. So IQ is mostly inherited, and mostly fixed by the time of conception. In other words, genetic.

Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by vacri on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @02:31AM (#3856785)
also, pretty much all the low-hanging fruit has been done in science. Even if we allow for science to be infinite, each new brick in the wall of science requires an ever-increasing amount of resources to gain, and usually those bricks are also much smaller.

My old company made what was essentially datalog viewing software. Version 1 of the software was basically just squiggly lines going across the screen. People loved it, because previously they only had squiggly lines going across paper, and a 20-minute recording was the size of a phone book. But version 2 of the software required far more developer work, and had much more polish and detailed algorithms underlying the analyses... but people bridled at 'having to pay again' when 'we don't really get that much for it'. More work, smaller bricks, less appreciation of what it takes to get there...

Re:How to think about science and becoming a scientist by bedris on Wednesday April 18, 2012 @08:42AM (#3857625)
I don't have the requisite knowledge to comment on fields other than the life sciences, and I certainly agree with your point that every new scientific and technological advance necessarily has to be more sophisticated than the one(s) that it's built upon. But the notion that the past was chock-full of low-hanging fruit just waiting to be picked seems exaggerated and doesn't give enough credit to the people who did all that work that, in hindsight, looks easy, trivial, and obvious, but at the time certainly required significant insights, advances, and effort.

John LaMattina, former president of R&D at Pfizer, weighs in: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnlamattina/2012/03/02/there-h...