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A comment on Wikifunctions. Parent comment

Re:Wikifunctions by lmm on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @10:02PM (#38552312)
> In my opinion this project is about 20 layers too abstract to actually produce working and useful software. But it's not virtue signaling if they're actually trying to do the thing, is it? Virtue signaling is when you act like you're doing something virtuous and then don't.

If one belives avoiding well-known tools and (english-based) programming languages is likely to actually make it easier for contributors using those languages to contribute to Wikipedia in those languages, then it's real. If one believes that this is not actually going to result in more usable tools, and the intention of avoiding tools from English-speaking Westerners is signalling rather than actually getting better results, then it's virtue signalling.

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Re:Wikifunctions by dleeftink on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @10:42PM (#38552584)
By that account, above discussion of what is and isn't virtue signalling is itself virtue signalling--mere platitudes rather than contributing to actionable outcomes.

I'd think us, or any foundation for that matter, should be able to lay out an agenda before outcomes are achieved, how (un)realistic they may be. A dot on the horizon to aim for, not necessarily achievable but a heading at least.

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Re:Wikifunctions by lmm on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:12AM (#38553090)
> By that account, above discussion of what is and isn't virtue signalling is itself virtue signalling--mere platitudes rather than contributing to actionable outcomes.

If you're just saying it for the upvotes, yes. If you're actually trying to get people to shift their efforts towards more effective things (such as translation support libraries that don't insist on avoiding English at every level), then no, it's legitimate effort.

> I'd think us, or any foundation for that matter, should be able to lay out an agenda before outcomes are achieved, how (un)realistic they may be. A dot on the horizon to aim for, not necessarily achievable but a heading at least.

An aim is fine. It's a question of sincerity.

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Re:Wikifunctions by ChrisClark on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:13PM (#38552744)
It's more vice-signalling. His complaint is a reaction to try and show others he doesn't care about the thoughtfulness behind the original statement.
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Re:Wikifunctions by smsm42 on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:23PM (#38552799)
But they actually wrote that in English (while being fellows of Google - one of the most imperial corporations in existence - as I understand) and are sure to use a lot of existing - and English-based - tools to implement it. I mean, if they abandoned the whole Western English-based foundation they rest on - including Von Neumann architecture for computers they use, for example - and started building it from physical laws back up (oh wait, physical laws also mostly discovered by Westerners and they probably learned them in English, which already imbued them with the imperialist perspective) then maybe it could be recognized as a honest - if mind-bogglingly misguided - effort to expunge the presumed imperialist bias. Since it is never going to happen, it can not be anything but virtue signalling.
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