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Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by parl_match on Thursday November 16, 2023 @05:52PM (#38296794)
> Solar and wind are winning

They will not and cannot win until we have cheap, highly dense, efficient power storage. That is, unfortunately, at least 20 years off (if we're lucky).

They will continue to be an important part of our energy ecosystem, and we should aggressively build them out, but we still need the fundamental power solution.

Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by hutzlibu on Thursday November 16, 2023 @06:06PM (#38296947)
Why does the storage has to be dense, if they are stationary?
Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by kuratkull on Thursday November 16, 2023 @06:11PM (#38296995)
Dense means they have a good size to kw/h ratio. If it's too low, nobody will install them. Space is a premium after all.
Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by hutzlibu on Thursday November 16, 2023 @06:16PM (#38297038)
Space im the cities is premium. Space in rural areas is not. I really don't think space is the problem, mass producing maybe, but otherwise have a big powerbank in every basement and you are done.
Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by pengaru on Thursday November 16, 2023 @08:15PM (#38298003)
> have a big powerbank in every basement and you are done.

Especially in the case of a flooding, Fukushima style.

Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by hutzlibu on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:43AM (#38301020)
Flooding destroys alsl batteries obviously, but the slightly important difference to Fukoshima is, a saltwater batterie does not contaminate the area.
Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by _ph_ on Friday November 17, 2023 @04:42AM (#38301407)
Besides that most areas aren't in the risk of flooding, there is litte preventing you to water proof your batteries to the point that submerging them into water has no ill effects. The housing of the batteries usually is water-proof anyway. Just look at all the Teslas driving through deep water. Oil tanks for heating are a huge problem with flooding though, as they tend to leak oil into the environment.
Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by tuatoru on Thursday November 16, 2023 @11:34PM (#38299618)
This is right. For grid connected storage, two things matter: 10-year total cost, and durability. At least a 30-year design life. (Well, reliability matters too: that 's implicit.)

Volume and mass are just whatever they are. They don't matter.

Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by epistasis on Thursday November 16, 2023 @07:40PM (#38297739)
Fortunately we do have cheap, dense batteries that are being deployed on a massive scale with new solar.
Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by alvah on Friday November 17, 2023 @12:40AM (#38300003)
"The idea that we are not currently, today, deploying massive amounts of batteries everywhere with today's technology is just plain ignorance"

I don't see anyone making this weirdly-specific claim. However, it's widely acknowledged that sufficient battery storage to guarantee national grid-wide power on-demand, sufficient for a modern industrial economy, is not currently feasible, in both economic and practical terms.

Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by epistasis on Friday November 17, 2023 @06:01AM (#38301900)
What you say is "widely acknowledged" is in direct contradiction to what is actually getting deployed on the grid. And what you say is a "weirdly specific claim" is also a surprise to people.

If a large chunk of current grid investment in Texas, profit-drivej by independent investors, how could it not be feasible to continue this level of investment? Especially when costs are falling dramatically and production capacity for batteries is just getting started and is scaling at a tremendous rate that will result in a complete excess of battery capacity within the time period that we could only build a thousandth of the same amount of nuclear wattage?

What is the blocker on feasibility?

Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by alvah on Friday November 17, 2023 @06:32PM (#38312235)
Among the blockers are (1) economics and (2) availability of raw & finished materials. This is all in the public domain, if you go looking for the numbers.

I’m not saying your claim about the rapid pace of building out battery storage is false - your claim is true. However, there is no currently-feasible way to run an advanced industrial economy on intermittent energy sources backed by chemical batteries. It may become technically feasible at some point in the future (never bet against human ingenuity in the long run), but it’s technically and economically impractical right now.

Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by epistasis on Saturday November 18, 2023 @02:37PM (#38323503)
Not sure what you mean by blockers or "impractical right now" but at best that's "we haven't built the mines or factories, yet." Which is not in any way a fundamental blocker on our ability to build what we want to build.

There are of course feasible ways of running our entire economy entirely on renewables, saying otherwise means ignoring the massive amount of literature on the topic:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9837910

Every argument I have ever seen attempted to say it is not possible makes simplifying unrealistic assumptions. Such as saying something silly like "here's our known lithium reserves, that's not enough."" Of course, our known reserves of lithium is going up every year, because we keep on looking for more, and the argument is not even sophisticated enough to acknowledge what proven reserves means as a concept.

So if you think you have a solid argument present it, and if I'm convinced let's get it published and overturn all this other literature.

Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by alvah on Saturday November 18, 2023 @07:41PM (#38326884)
Your link talks (theoretically, not practically) about 100% RE by 2060! Do you understand what “currently” means?

You hand-wave with “we haven’t built the mines or factories, yet”. In the real world, discovery, proving, permits, construction, and commissioning new mines can take many years - and that’s if sufficient quantities of the required minerals are feasibly recoverable, or in a jurisdiction that allows extraction and export (e.g. not China).

So let’s get back to the real world & be realistic. 100% RE is not currently viable for an advanced industrial economy. Let’s get all the published literature revised to get rid of the hand-waves and ivory tower theoretical BS.

Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by parl_match on Friday November 17, 2023 @01:24PM (#38307694)
> Fortunately we do have cheap, dense batteries that are being deployed on a massive scale with new solar.

I would not consider that cheap. I would not consider that highly efficient. It is a step in the right direction, but it's not enough

> The idea that we are not currently, today, deploying massive amounts of batteries everywhere with today's technology is just plain ignorance

Nowhere did I say we weren't. They just simply aren't good enough for our needs. We can't get there without this intermediate step - and it _is_ doing good and helping humanity. But we're simply not there and won't be for at least a decade.

> take Texas's grid, which is one of the few places where storage is allowed to compete on its own cost merits

You mean the Texas grid that keeps failing and sticking people with $1000 monthly power bills? Not a great example lol

Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by matthewdgreen on Thursday November 16, 2023 @07:51PM (#38297821)
The first two Swedish nuclear plants won't come online for at least 12 years, and the next eight aren't scheduled to be operational until 2045. That's 22 years in the future.

Personally I think your timeline for storage is going to prove wildly conservative (we already have 5GW installed in CA, China is building capacity exponentially.) But even if you're right: these nuclear plants are going to come online right at the moment when storage makes them economically obsolete.

Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by childintime on Thursday November 16, 2023 @10:23PM (#38299083)
Exactly. And their construction will have pumped 25% of the CO2 in the atmosphere they were supposed to prevent during their lifetime. Nuclear is a really bad idea if construction takes that long.
Re:Sweden Gov Announces 'Massive Expansion' of Nuclear Energy by throwbadubadu on Friday November 17, 2023 @01:26AM (#38300226)
imo that's outdated mantra repeated while we are just getting there.. but anyway: as is any nuclear 10 year planning now 20 years out then in reality, at least here in the west.