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Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by mksybr on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:35PM (#38210848)
> Should every website ask for your consent to serve you javascript now?

Ideally, yes.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by gyc on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:36PM (#38210861)
Please don't give the EU any more ideas.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by LtWorf on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:44PM (#38210990)
I could do without js.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by Retr0id on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:49PM (#38211062)
As the "cookie consent" debacle showed us, websites won't stop using JS, they'll just bombard you with consent dialogs until you click the button that makes them go away fastest, which is likely the one that involves consenting to run their JS.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by mksybr on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:57PM (#38211167)
I don't think I've ever seen a cookie consent behave that way, they just make it 1-3 extra clicks to refuse non-essential cookies; which is in violation.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by mrguyorama on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:05PM (#38211292)
A reminder that the "cookie consent debacle" is intentional. There is no requirement for a popup or any system to ask for your consent to store cookies if you simply do not store unnecessary cookies, and the carve out for "necessary" cookies is huge.

Every time you see a popup to approve cookies, it is explicitly so a company can beg you to allow them to track you for free money.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by Retr0id on Thursday November 09, 2023 @05:55PM (#38212560)
Right, this about what websites will do in response to legislation, not what the legislation actually intends for them to do.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by LtWorf on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:40PM (#38223518)
I'm entirely ok if the punishment for violating the law (most popups violate the law) is to shut down the entire website for 6 months.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by CamperBob2 on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:17PM (#38211466)
Then turn it off.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by Xeamek on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:14PM (#38211420)
Why not? GDPR isn't flawless, but im sure happy it exists
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by heavyset_go on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:35PM (#38211693)
Please, give the more ideas. They're the only regulatory bloc that's willing to protect users from corporate overreach and oligopoly.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by fomine3 on Thursday November 09, 2023 @11:47PM (#38215160)
Their core thoughts seems to good, final result isn't.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by freedomben on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:43PM (#38210974)
uMatrix implements that. Highly recommend.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by _Algernon_ on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:20PM (#38211504)
There is also https://noscript.net/

I don't think umatrix is actively maintained any more

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by freedomben on Thursday November 09, 2023 @05:53PM (#38212537)
Correct, umatrix is not actively maintained anymore. It still works flawlessly and is (IMHO) feature complete, but as time goes on it's good to be cognisant of the security implications.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by SpaghettiCthulu on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:08PM (#38211330)
You can also just set uBlock Origin to disable JavaScript by default.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by doublerabbit on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:47PM (#38211028)
While highly recommended. Outside of the tech crowd, uMatrix is a maze to organise and most folk don't care that they are planted with tracking cookies.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by mksybr on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:09PM (#38211349)
For those users, there is uBlock Origin. Actually, I think it's the recommended suggestion by their developer for all users, isn't uMatrix no longer supported with uBlock Origin including many of it's features?
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by tremon on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:17PM (#38211464)
I'm still using uMatrix. I don't really understand why uMatrix was abandoned, its UI is miles ahead what uBlock Origin offers.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by mksybr on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:23PM (#38211544)
I haven't used uMatrix in years, but isn't the UI in uBlock Origin > More similar, do you know what's missing?

https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Blocking-mode:-medium...

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by tremon on Thursday November 09, 2023 @05:09PM (#38212077)
Everything is missing? That left panel as shown in the screenshot is display-only, you can't click on it to allow/disallow anything (also: it's below the rest of the interface in my version, not to the left, which requires a lot further mouse travel).

...oh, I see, I have to first go into the settings to declare myself an able-minded human. That's quite the UX failure, hiding functionality behind an unrelated toggle at an entirely different place.

Having finally found the correct mystical incantation, I can answer your question. At first glance, that UI is incredibly confusing. Why are there two two columns to the right of every domain? What's the difference between making the left column red and the right grey, versus making the right column red and the left grey? What is the significance of the +'s and -'s in the various cells? That help page doesn't explain any of it.

What's really missing: uMatrix lets me see how many resources of what type were loaded from what domain. That's very helpful when finding out what needs to be unblocked: if a site doesn't work, I progessively whitelist third-party resources until basic functionality is restored. I then remove everything from the writelist that's unused. It doesn't seem like that information is available.

Also: with UBO it doesn't seem possible to enable javascript for just one third-party host, or enable everything except javascript? If I whitelist a host in the UI, it automatically enables static resources (img, css), dynamic resources (js), cross-site data (xhr) and frames. I'm not going to write manual rules every time I want to allow everything except javascript.

This is just from a cursory examination, so maybe the functionality is there, it's just unfamiliarity with the new interface. But from what I'm seeing, neither the UI itself nor the help page make a compelling reason to make the switch.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by mksybr on Thursday November 09, 2023 @05:19PM (#38212180)
To allow disallow, click the smaller rectangles to the left, on mouse over they are grey and red squares.

>uMatrix lets me see how many resources of what type were loaded from that domain.

uBlock Origin > Logger (its an icon)

> enable javascript for just one third-party host

Red button (with more enabled) disables a specific resource in a nested-list UI very similar to uMatrix AFAIR.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by tremon on Thursday November 09, 2023 @06:06PM (#38212677)
Yes, I phrased that one badly. I meant to ask: how do I enable just javascript for a host, rather than also enabling css/img/frames? But that's more of an academic question since if you trust a domain to run javascript, you'll surely also load css and img from that domain.

Red button (with more enabled) disables a specific resource

I don't see it. Red button disables a specific domain for as far as I can see. It doesn't disable just one type of resource from that domain.

in a nested-list UI very similar to uMatrix

It seems this is the problem: uMatrix is most emphatically not a nested-list UI: it is an authorization matrix UI. It seems that UBO does try to incorporate some of uMatrix' features back into it, but in the basis it's still a one-dimensional blocklist. That's just not good enough for how I browse the web in safety.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by freedomben on Thursday November 09, 2023 @05:56PM (#38212574)
If the missing functionality is there, I can't find it either and no mention in the docs.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by tremon on Thursday November 09, 2023 @06:16PM (#38212771)
Replying to myself to further refine my issues:

Why are there two two columns to the right of every domain?

The left column is for global rules (independent of the currently-visited domain), the right column is for rules specific to the currently-loaded domain. This is strictly inferior to uMatrix, which allows me to set rules for every part of the dns name (e.g. I can easilty switch between settings rules for news.ycombinator.com, ycombinator.com and even for all .com sites). So what's missing: source domain control over the rule I'm currently setting.

What's more, in uMatrix I could set a hard block on a toplevel domain (say, google.com) and then add a whitelist for a subdomain (say, mail.google.com) which would override the higher-level block. Since UBO only uses block (red)/ignore (grey), this kind of setup is not possible. So what's missing: an explicit allow/ignore/block toggle like in uMatrix.

What is the significance of the +'s and -'s in the various cells?

These are blocked and allowed resources, so there's some level of feedback there. But it seems that CSS resources are not included in those statistics at all, and images do cause a + to be displayed in the domain-specific row but not in the generic "images" row whereas third-party javascript gets a + in the domain-specific row and in the generic "3rd-party scripts row". So what's missing: I want resource type indicators rather than generic "+"

I'll repeat what I wrote as a response to the sibling comment because it seems to be a fundamental UI problem: the UI of UBO still seems geared towards a one-dimensional blocklist and is missing all the controls for two-dimensional control of [domains]x[resource types]. And after years of safely browsing the modern web with uMatrix, I can't imagine going without that control.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by pessimizer on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:45PM (#38211008)
Unwanted javascript is a job for the browser to refuse. Which is why the people who ship browsers try to make refusing as difficult or confusing as possible.

-----

Turns out that youtube also has:

1) the dominant browser;

2) the same interests as, multiple partnerships with, and very little actual competition with the company that runs the next biggest browser in a walled garden, and

3) been completely funding the development of the browser that continually press releases as if youtube's aims are pure evil and that they are the only opposition.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by andrewxdiamond on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:50PM (#38211065)
Pointless, you are already in complete control of this. Just disable JS, enable it when you want.

If a website doesn’t support your usecase, that’s on you, there is no ADA requirement for JS-free websites

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by mksybr on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:58PM (#38211193)
Doesn't that same argument apply to cookie consent popups?

Privacy shouldn't only be afforded to the more technical users.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by orangecat on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:14PM (#38211414)
Doesn't that same argument apply to cookie consent popups?

Yes! I would have much preferred the EU to make PSAs explaining how to disable cookies in browsers rather than inflicting popups on billions of users.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by TeMPOraL on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:58AM (#38215945)
Companies are being purposefully obtuse with popups as a form of malicious compliance (and in some cases looking suspiciously like political statement) - and you're blaming the EU for it?
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by orangecat on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:43PM (#38221917)
you're blaming the EU for it?

Yes. If you create regulations with the assumption that they will be followed exactly how you want them to be rather than considering how entities who don't share your goals will react, you are doing a bad job.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by wepple on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:12PM (#38211390)
I’d be interested to see the data that shows cookie notifications have had a useful impact.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by amatecha on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:18PM (#38211477)
I'd wager they've had a "useful" impact, in that they've done a lot to coerce/manipulate users into allowing tracking cookies. :\
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by elondaits on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:17PM (#38211471)
Cookie consent popups are not mandated by the GDPR (the EU privacy law), they’re just a stupid (and often infringing) reaction to it.

The GDPR disallows tracking without consent, but more in the spirit of “don’t track” than “get consent”. It also specifies that conditions should be clear, and that not granting consent (or withdrawing it) should be as simple as granting it. It even specifies that sites that request private information from kids should be clearer, because they need to understand what they’re accepting even if their guardians will provide the consent.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by orangecat on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:33PM (#38211681)
Cookie consent popups are not mandated by the GDPR (the EU privacy law), they’re just a stupid (and often infringing) reaction to it.

They're an entirely rational and predictable reaction to it. If you're trying to regulate bad actors, it should be utterly unsurprising when they game the easily gameable rules.

The GDPR disallows tracking without consent, but more in the spirit of “don’t track” than “get consent”.

Then it should actually ban tracking, without the loophole of "you can track as long as you get the user to click a button, also you can't offer them anything in exchange for doing so". That's just asking for all the dark patterns we've gotten.

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by TeMPOraL on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:01AM (#38215963)
> They're an entirely rational and predictable reaction to it.

The problem isn't that. The problem is that people are being convinced that malicious compliance is somehow the EU's fault. This is clearly the bad actors being bad; the thing that's being gamed isn't GDPR, but publicity around it. As in, the EU should probably invest some money in naming and shaming actors complying in bad faith (if at all).

Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by bartimus on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:41PM (#38222755)
It does and that's what makes the nonsense of cookie consent laws. How are you going to keep track of the user's preference of "no" to cookie tracking? It's the browser saving the data, not the website.
Re:YouTube's Adblock detection might break the law in the EU by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Thursday November 09, 2023 @10:56PM (#38214868)
There was a period in time during the (d)evolution of the www, before Javascript, when the graphical browser would prompt the user whether or not they wanted to run a Java applet found in a web page.^1

Today, we are supposed to ignore the removal of choice as relevant.

We are supposed to ignore the billions of dollars Google pays to be the default search engine, where it is well-known that users do not actively select it.

We are supposed to ignore what happened to Facebook when Apple gave iOS users the choice to "Limit Ad Tracking" where previously they were given no such choice.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/02/facebook-says-apple-ios-priv...

Giving users meaningful choice is a threat to the so-called "tech" company business model. Obviously those working for such companies will not like the idea of having to obtain consent to engage in surveillance and data collection. Much of that surveillance and collection is accomplished using Javascript.

1. The risks posed by those applets from the early web versus the risks posed by Javascript today may be different. However, the later is no less threatening. The world's web users have lost an incredible quantum of privacy thanks to the "run all Javascript by default" feature of web browsers distributed by so-called "tech" companies. The surveillance potential enabled by running arbitrary Javascript from the web is enormous. The company that produces the browser and the JS engine is in fact an advertising company engaged in surveillance advertising services on a massive scale.