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Re:M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores by mdasen on Friday November 03, 2023 @02:26PM (#38132855)
I certainly thought this back in 2012 when Apple started designing their own mobile CPU cores. How could Apple compete with ARM's designs which would have much greater economies of scale or with Qualcomm who would be shipping way more units than Apple? More than a decade later and it's proven to be a durable competitive advantage.

I would point out that Apple had no first mover advantage with the iPhone. Apple was using standard ARM cores for the first 5 years. It's not like ARM didn't have a multi-decade head start on Apple designing ARM cores.

There are certainly risks, but so far it looks like Apple is making the right decision. Intel and AMD are mostly still targeting a higher power/thermal level than Apple is looking for. Apple likes being able to run things without relying on an external GPU. Having the ability to design things themselves means they're able to make what is most important to their users.

With Intel, Apple was always at the whims of what Intel wanted to produce. It took forever to get the 1038NG7 28W part from Intel which meant that Apple couldn't offer a 13" laptop with the speed that a lot of users wanted. It also meant that they were beholden to crappy Intel graphics - even as they paid up for the Iris graphics.

With their own CPUs, their destiny is in their hands. It's worked extremely well for the iPhone and it's working well for their Macs too.

One of the things to remember: Apple already needs to design these cores for their iPhones and iPads. Once you're doing that, it makes a certain amount of sense to re-use those core designs for the Macs. It isn't zero effort, but they aren't starting from scratch.

I'd also note that Apple tends to do less than a lot of companies and the same applies to their processors. Intel, AMD, and Qualcomm are trying to make parts for a huge range of devices. Apple has a much narrower field of products. While Qualcomm is trying to create processors for $100 cheap phones, Apple just goes with a single CPU for its mobile devices (sometimes using last year's CPU for some devices). With the Mac, Apple has a little more variety, but it's still pretty constrained. An M Ultra is basically just two M Maxes put together. Most of the time, the design is basically the same and Apple has just changed the core count or something like that.

Will Apple compete with Nvidia's GPUs? Probably not, but an M2 Ultra is competing with an Nvidia RTX 3070 desktop GPU. Sure, that's not the current generation or Nvidia's highest spec, but it's still good - and OpenCL isn't great on Mac so it isn't even a fair test. The new M3s have much upgraded graphics and it'll be interesting to see how well they do.

You can say it has never worked before, but I think that might ignore a few things. First, one of the reasons that Intel came to dominate things is because everyone who tried to vertically integrate their processors tried to charge too much. Regardless of what you think of Apple's pricing, they aren't charging more for the privilege of their M processors than they were for their Intel ones. I think it also ignores the fact that Apple has so much money. Finally, in terms of cores shipped in the segments that Apple is shipping them, they're huge. ARM isn't shipping many X-series cores (their top performance cores). They're mostly shipping lower spec'd cores. There aren't a ton of flagship Android phones being sold. Intel is mostly shipping lower-end laptop CPUs destined for machines in the $400-800 range, server CPUs, etc. Apple has a lot of scale for the cores it is designing.

There is risk, but Apple took that risk a decade ago with their iPhone CPUs and they've had a great advantage there. While Intel and others are looking to revitalize their CPU game, it seems like they're doing it at a higher thermal/power level than Apple is looking for - and trying to benchmark themselves against Apple parts at a fraction of the power. Apple is getting to design parts that do what they need and they've proven that they can beat the industry for more than a decade. I'd say it was the right decision to move to Apple Silicon for Macs.

Re:M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores by flashback2199 on Friday November 03, 2023 @03:30PM (#38133874)
That was way too much to read. Apple succeeded with iPhone chips because of huge first mover advantage. Computers and laptops have existed for many decades. Apple is taking on the entire desktop/laptop semis industry. They are making their marketing about the chip now instead of the product. Seems strange. They are going to keep falling further behind because they do not have the ability to focus solely on the chip. The chip is beholden to the product and vice versa. PowerPC was faster than x86 for a long time. It couldn't keep up. We'll see. It's very different now. You don't have to build a fab to make a chip anymore. I don't see the Mac line flourishing for power users at all going forward. You can't even do CUDA stuff on a Mac anymore. You're supposed to send that off to the cloud. The computer that's twice as expensive can do half as much. For now it's working very well. Time will tell. Ubuntu Desktop has never been this good and it's getting better every new version. 23.10 just came out. I used to be on mac now why bother.
Re:M3 Macs: there's more to performance than counting cores by seec on Thursday November 09, 2023 @02:41PM (#38210014)
It's kind of funny seeing the Intel iGPU being bashed even though the basic GPU in the low-end M chips is barely better. In fact it can run less display and since it is Metal only, many games will run worse. But I guess Intel iGPUs are bad yes, the point is they were never supposed to be anything else than display drivers... Intel actually made GPUs and even though they were drivers issues, they are pretty decent for the price, everything considered.

As for the rest, Apple enjoyed a lead in the phone chips for a while, but a lot of it is related to the cash at hand and the possibility to sell most of your products at very high margin. Androids didn't invest as much money, because there is significantly less people willing to put as much cash in a phone if it doesn't come with the "social status" thing Apple has. And now even though the Qualcomm chips are somewhat worse than Apple's, it doesn't matter for the vast majority of people. In the end Apple went and chased premium margin instead of volume and I think it's going to bite them in the ass in the long term because in technology volume and network effect are what matters. There are many "superior" technologies that disappeared or never really took off just because of that, so I doubt Apple will fare much better. I think it's all downhill from here and by the time they notice they actually have to compete on price they will have lost the war since there will be less people willing to go for the non-standard. But then we will hear about how their competitors are villain monopolist oppressing them even though they had the money and means to pursue a more general competitive approach.

Apple fans seems to believe they are winning with their efficient chips but as far as I am concerned, they are losing everywhere it matters. High performance desktop, device convergences, cloud, AI, gaming, 3D focused softwares... They still have 3 OS and laughed at Microsoft unifying strategy, but now a Surface can run both desktop software and more mobile optimized software gracefully and you still have to run a half assed iOS "big" version on a 1k+ iPad Pro.

Time will tell...