Israel specifically pointed at the area where they will be bombing to clear civilians. They used cell phone tracking to make sure that their message was getting through and only then conducted bombing. This seriously hindered the impact of the bombing since it lets the terrorists escape.
Notice that these "facts" about civilians dying are given by the Hamas who block escape roads for their own people and disallow them from going into their tunnels for safety. The Hamas wants civilian casualties to raise the next generation of terrorists and to reduce the legitimacy of Israel.
> And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims.
According to the Hamas which has lied repeatedly about everything and specifically prevented people from leaving.
> Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are.
No it doesn't. The difference is stark.
The Hamas his holding children hostage. It opened this attack by burning civilians alive and shooting children. It was during a time when Israel was reducing pressure on Gaza so 100% unprovoked and against civilians. They knew retaliation would happen and are keeping hostages so the retaliation will happen.
They block their own people from the tunnels so they will die in the crossfire.
Israel might make mistakes that harm civilians (a lot fewer than reported) but the hamas left Israel no choice. Imagine your children held in a terrorist tunnel, Israel is REMARKABLY easy on them all things considered.
This is not actually how the Geneva Conventions work. In particular, the Geneva Conventions do not allow a belligerent to intentionally use human shields in order to turn a legitimate military target into an illegal target. Furthermore, the so called rule of "proportionality" does not actually use the term "proportionate". Instead, the criteria is whether the "expected" civilian casualties are "excessive" "in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated". There's a good thread here breaking this down: https://twitter.com/Aizenberg55/status/1719729794043052234
The proportionality rule ultimately requires a judgement call, like the thread you provided states. I understand that your call might be different than mine, but to me the evidence is clear: Israel is not paying appropriate heed to Article 57 §1: "In the conduct of military operations, constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects."
You seem to think the massive toll on civilians and civilian objects (houses) is merely because Hamas is using them as shields, to me this tactic of Hamas' is now mainly an excuse used by IDF to terrorize to the point of obliteration a perceived hateful albeit civilian population, a strategy that has strong support in Israel after Hamas heinous attacks on October 7.
We can debate the finer points of this ad nauseam, but that would be missing the greater picture, which is that the Israeli army is now doing exactly what Hamas expected them to do. What we need now is to tell the Israelis to stop and reconsider, not provide further excuses for genocidal policies. The current trajectory is not in Israel's long term interests, nor those of the region or indeed the world.
Hamas routinely places military targets such as rocket launch sites, headquarters, and weapons productions centers directly alongside and underneath civilian population centers. They do this to manipulate gullible people like you and they are succeeding. Israel is right not to care about such foolish opinions when Hamas has vowed to repeat the massacres of October 7 repeatedly as long as they exist. They are not the ones pursuing a genocidal policy.
> foolish opinions
I understand. Instead of civil discourse you prefer to have ad hominem laden discussions about your strawmen? A tactic commonly used in lieu of sound arguments as you may be aware. But granted, this issue is "too close to home" for some people, a level-headed discussion can be too much to ask for.
I guess we're done here. Have a nice day.
Then you're at fault. Not whoever dropped the bomb.
In case there's any doubt what I mean: Hamas is moving Palestinian civilians (in addition to killing them outright) at gunpoint into areas Israel has announced they'll bomb. That's as bad as throwing them off buildings, shooting them, and other methods they use, and as it makes it impossible for Israel to avoid civilians, it does remove the blame from Israel.
And please post evidence of your claim they are moving civilians in intentionally. Turns out those buildings being blown up are also people’s houses and they don’t want to leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israeli%E2%80%93P...
Also, as for your story, I don’t believe them. More likely that soldier killed civilians knowingly and then made up the story after.
There is a lot of it, but of course you can say it's all fabricated, e.g. these examples: https://web.archive.org/web/20111018011032/http://www.mfa.go...
However, the gist of "lack of evidence" is found in this quote:
> The United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict ("UNFFMG") that took place in 2008–2009 accepted the possibility that Hamas launched mortar attacks from the vicinity of a school and from residential homes, sometimes by the threat of force against residents. The report was unable to find specific evidence that civilians whose homes were used for rocket launches were "forced to remain in their houses" but the report repeatedly noted that Gaza residents were "reluctant" to discuss the conduct of Palestinian armed forces due to fear of reprisals.
So yes, if you are going to look for Palestinians who will testify in court that the were forced to remain in a given place or enable to escape for some time, you will never find such a person.
Funny you mention that report though, it also states that Israel intentionally targeted civilians.
Goldstone also said the evidence presented did not meet "the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt".
You can ignore all of those things. You can ignore the fact that they placed their headquarters under a hospital or that they fire rockets next to another hospital (and hit it by mistake then blamed Israel).
Just as long as it fits the narrative of Israel is lying and the Hamas is, truthful???
What level of evidence do you need? There's motive, there's justification, there's first person testimony... What do you think, that the people who send suicide bombers into busses with children are too nice???
Confirmation bias is a problematic thing. For instance, I don't want to believe that the Hamas is truthful about the number of deaths in Gaza. But I don't KNOW that they are lying. I have no source of that other than their history. It's also very clear that they don't divide combatants from civilians which is the number I want to know. But the difference is my belief doesn't factor into this. I just don't know. That isn't evidence either.
In this case the evidence is pretty damn clear.
You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions. Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
You repeat the lie that the rocket hit the hospital (no evidence of this and the evidence points to an Israeli bomb or shell) You also repeat the lie that there is a base under the hospital.
You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.
What motive and justification are you even talking about? Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway? You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies? Or maybe it’s that Israel is a genocidal state that needs to justify globally why it’s massacring civilians?
Also amusing you post that you can’t know about the civilian deaths. The UN and other human rights groups have confirmed the numbers and said they are probably a low estimate. How is that not evidence for you?
Divide civilians from combatants? How many of the 1400 Israelis killed on the 7th were IDF btw?
But yeah, you’re right about confirmation bias being a thing.
Mosab Hassan Yousef is very much not an Israeli. He has family still in Gaza which might not talk to him but he still loves them (my spouse knows him personally).
Here's a PDF from Nato: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields....
> You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions.
Their intentions are clear from their documents. They are clear from their actions. I saw the busses they blew up, I spoke to people who were hiding in a safe room while half their peaceful village was wiped out. These are people who would fly kites with Gazan's to promote peaceful co-existence. Not settlers.
Israel has free media. A lot of the bad stuff you hear about Israels action comes from Israeli media and Israelis. There is propaganda, but with free press it's very hard to keep it going.
> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
Let's start by saying that the current government is awful and terrible. Not as bad as the Hamas but definitely should be in jail. They got elected due to a broken electoral system and Benjamin Netanyahu's manipulation of the political system to get away from his criminal trials.
> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.
I didn't hear Likud members specifically say "Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth" but I did hear coalition members say that and they are indeed abhorrent and despicable. Fortunately, the army is an independent branch. It obeys the law and international law. Soldiers know they are liable, although indeed there are some terrible cases where they stray, but there are good cases where they are caught.
I'm not saying Israel is the "good guy" here. It's a bad situation. But the Hamas is by far more terrible to all sides. It is currently a choice, either the Hamas or Israel. By the Hamas's own words, they will do this again: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6
Israel literally has no choice here. I hope this war will also result in the collapse of the Likud government and maybe a second chance for peace without the interference of Netanyahu or the Hamas.
> You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.
Fair. I do start from that point. I don't think I blindly believe them though. The evidence of the Hamas murdering civilians is pretty evidence by the three busses blown up on the street where I used to live in the 90s... Or the bartender I knew who was burned to an inch of death in a cafe explosion. These aren't good people.
OTOH I spent a lot of time with Palestinians who are great people. Moderate, peaceful people. I know them and I know they are not the Hamas. They are its victims.
> Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway?
Israel tries not to kill them so it actually works. See the hospital case. Israel knows that the headquarters are there and yet, not a single bomb.
But when Israel still hits even one of them, then it makes sense to infuriate and raise more terrorists. To reduce the legitimacy of Israel and the victim goes to heaven... It's a win for them regardless of what Israel does.
> You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies?
I suggest googling martyrdom and the Muslim Brotherhood which was the source of the Hamas. Their extremist religious belief is that any Muslim who dies as part of the Jihad is a Martyr. Goes instantly to heaven. They even make memes over that, claiming that death isn't the end for them. That's how they get people to blow themselves up.
It's an insane religious interpretation of Islam, you can read about it here (PDF): https://securitypolicylaw.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/03...
> Or maybe it’s that Israel is a genocidal state that needs to justify globally why it’s massacring civilians?
Let's check that claim... Israel very much has the power to kill everyone. Yet despite throwing thousands of tons of bombs, casualties are still around 8,000 and that's based on the inflated Hamas numbers (and I would argue that the vast majority are Hamas terrorists).
Israel specifically targeted areas with low population, it tracked phone signals and only bombed areas that had low civilian activity. Does that sound like a country trying to conduct genocide?
Notice, I'm not saying Israel is good or perfect. I'm not saying it is free of racism or discrimination. But it does have rule of law and is subject to international oversight, an investigator from the Hauge court is in Israel right now inspecting the actions taken by the army. They need to have the ability to explain every single one of those thousands of bombs. They will need to connect all the action to concrete intelligence.
> Also amusing you post that you can’t know about the civilian deaths. The UN and other human rights groups have confirmed the numbers and said they are probably a low estimate. How is that not evidence for you?
The UN hasn't confirmed any number. They don't know because all of the people are there and afraid for their lives from the Hamas. The numbers include both civilian and Hamas deaths as a single number.
> Divide civilians from combatants? How many of the 1400 Israelis killed on the 7th were IDF btw?
Very few. The posts that were attacked had minimal personnel. The Nova party that was attacked was the main source of victims. The village where our friends lived had 450 people. Around 200 survived, luckily them included by the husbands ridiculous bravery.
> But yeah, you’re right about confirmation bias being a thing.
Sure. I have a side. But I'm a super lefty liberal so I hate the Israeli government and do believe the Palestinians deserve a country. I have Palestinian friends and my heart goes out to them. You're assuming that I implicitly pick Israels side but the opposite is true, it burns me to have to support any army action, especially with the SOB Netanyahu still in charge. I don't trust him at all...
That's the thing, I have doubts but not about how evil the Hamas is... That's proven.
Not under international law. If you hide among civilians, using them as human shields, any civilian deaths or injuries are deemed to be war crimes committed by you, not the opposing force.
Look it up.
We're done here.
During the 2002 Battle of Jenin, Palestinians claimed hundreds to thousands of civilian casualties, including claims of mass graves. Afterwards, the total number of Palestinian casualties turned out to be 52 to 53, most of whom were militants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_(2002)
As for Jabalia, many of the civilian casualties are attributed to “sinkholes” (i.e. the Hamas tunnel network). There were also warnings of “the possibility of secondary explosions due to the presence of munitions in the area” (https://x.com/gaza_report/status/1719363355360518250), along with reports of “the loss of Jabaliya brigade commander Ibrahim Biari and several other fighters when their underground operations center collapsed after being hit by an Israeli air strike.”
Israel issued a warning weeks ago that the safest part of Gaza would the southern half of the strip, south of the Wadi Gaza. Why wouldn’t Hamas place refugees there instead of on top of their underground command centers where they were storing munitions?
> Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are.
On October 7th, Hamas fighters entered Israel to rape and murder over 1,400 people in their homes, in the streets, and at a music festival. Over 200 were taken hostage. Do you believe this was a legitimate act of resistance?
The white house did eventually confirm the casualties (1), not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies and were credible and believed by the white house and media too, in fact, UN believes that the numbers are actually higher but still under the rubble
> Some U.N. officials, however, say the real number of casualties is likely significantly higher because the health ministry’s tally doesn’t include people still under the rubble. (2)
(1) https://twitter.com/OopsGuess/status/1719517883976614095
The White House confirmed that civilian casualties are taking place, but civilian casualties take place in every armed conflict.
> not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies
False; did you read the part of my comment addressing Jenin? Even in this conflict, the blast at the hospital, Hamas claimed 500 deaths when they blamed it on Israel. It turned out that not only did Israel not bomb the hospital (rather, it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad), but the total number of deaths was, depending on which source you believe, anywhere between 1/10 and 1/2 as many as Hamas had originally claimed.
They did confirm the numbers, they are independently audited by the UN team too, always been the case, even Senators now are confirming the numbers (1), additionally, if US “really” wanted to confirm the numbers, they can send a team there to confirm these numbers by themselves, but we all know it’s just a dirty politics to hijack the credibility of Palestinians officials’ statements to allow further crimes goes undetected.
> False; did you read the part of my comment addressing Jenin?
I did, and has nothing to do with this current issue so it’s irrelevant, since they fall in different administrations (one in Gaza other in West bank)
> It turned out that not only did Israel not bomb the hospital (rather, it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad)
That’s also another lie, it wasn’t a misfire as noted by many analysts who also analyzed the sound of that hit, this video probably provides the best timeline (2)
(1) https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1719858059193794599
(2) https://twitter.com/ChiefTrumpster/status/171679329621789515...
And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims.
According to CBC radio, more children have been killed in Gaza in the past 3 weeks than in all conflicts since 2019. ( Link: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7012927 )
Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are.