"People feel good when they help ...". No argument. But is morality just about the feels? No, it isn't.

Now, if one believes in a creator that is many orders of magnitude (or infinitely) more intelligent than a human, sure, saying that they probably have a better insight into morality and we should listen to them makes sense. But it would be because of their greater ability to understand what is moral, not them being the law maker of morality.

Well, because the god can stick you in a fire for all eternity if you follow the human's moral code instead. That's not really a great case for the soundness of their moral teachings but nonetheless presents a compelling argument for obedience.

You say that, and it's good that you did because the arguments you're making don't work together to prove your point in the way that you think they do. What about a godless universe makes morality impossible to justify? Is it that god is the only possible source of morality or meaning or value or something? Because you haven't proven that and can't just take it as axiom.

This is the way it ought to work, but often does not. Or, when your peer group associates criminal or antisocial behavior with positive attributes.

Shaming does not work in a large population of antisocial people. Religion is not THE answer however for a large population of people it is necessary (currently).

Can you think of anything in between? Why the extreme jump to “it’s either all or nothing”?

To state that The Only way to not be a meaningless hunk of rock is to worship your god seems like a pretty big lack of imagination.

I don’t need your god or your god’s rules to appreciate that you’re probably an amazing person in many ways. My partner is “godless” and she’s far more amazing than a rock.

If you want to argue that certain people need religion and that it may provide more benefit to society when those people personally worship their god I can see how this may be a sound argument. Some people really do need jesus, but this hardly means everyone needs jesus or some other sky god to see the value of other people.

This is such a good example of why I push back on organized religions and their foot soldier bible thumpers… this all or nothing thing. I don’t want your god, I don’t want your religious prudery. I thinks it’s amazing that you find meaning there, i really genuinely do. But it isn’t for me. No. I don’t want your god. I still see your value and still care—and, honestly it’s not a wild impossibility that I see value in others and that I do this without a god.

Because you clearly don't understand the context or reasoning behind any of the situations you listed, you resort to simply condemning God upon your own authority.

You think of yourself as better than God.

And that is what sin is.

Try acknowledging God as the authority, as He is your maker, and then you might even get to understand all the events you are ignorantly referring to.

I think most people would agree that mass murders are morally wrong.

> You think of yourself as better than God.

I have my own problems, but otherwise I don't murder people.

> Try acknowledging God as the authority, as He is your maker, and then you might even get to understand all the events you are ignorantly referring to.

Fortunately the god doesn't exist, and the bible is just poorly written fiction.

But even if I was convinced that the Abrahamic god exists, it wouldn't change my opinion that the god is a narcissist psychopath.

That's a rough approximation of my beliefs. The universe is massive and long-lived. I am neither.

I want to leave the world a better place than when I entered it. That trickles down to my daily life - are things better or worse when I go to bed than when I awoke? Being as insignificant as a rock doesn't preclude that desire.

And frankly, it's kind of offensive when Christians tell me I'm less-than-moral because I don't need their scripture to decide what's good or bad.

The moral argument isn't telling you that. You people (HN readers) seem intent on misunderstanding my initial statements.

It's not that atheists are not moral. Not even less moral than religious people.

The point I am trying, and failing, to express is that morality must come from a higher, non-human source. If it does not, then it is just a product of fallible human minds and is entirely meaningless. That's it.

At the scale of the universe, everything we do is meaningless. We simply are what we are and that's that. Realizing this causes me no small amount of existential angst. So I try to live in the moment as best I can and leave the world ever so slightly better than I found it.

So maybe we actually agree (on what lack of religion means, not on what we personally believe about morality or existence)?