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Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by xwolfi on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @10:45PM (#38094033)
If you dont make children, who will be the soldiers building that empire?

Im in China myself, I dont see blood thirsty imperialists, plotting land grabs all around, I see an exhausted aimless populace going on in a desperate forward escape towards a childless greying future, surrounded by foreign healthcare labour, led by panicked politicians shouting meaningless patriotic slogans against the wind as the boat sink further and further

My wife, whom I tried to discourage from buying property, entered negative equity on her 40-year studio mortgage she s not allowed to rent out as half her family already emigrated to the UK to reconvert from high paid service jobs to low paid blue collar jobs because at least there they can raise kids.

I dont get why americans are scared of us: we're just as scared of them. It's not going well here.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by TerrifiedMouse on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:18PM (#38094256)
> I dont get why americans are scared of us: we're just as scared of them. It's not going well here.

Because your government keep threatening to start a war in the Pacific over Taiwan and no one is taking those threats lightly.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by sho on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @12:12AM (#38094529)
While it's important to respond to these threats with a credible show of deterrence, realistically speaking not many people think China can or will even try to take Taiwan anytime soon, if ever. Invasion by sea was hard even before we had missiles, satellites, and radar - it now appears almost impossible and has not been attempted at scale since WWII. Never say never I suppose, but I don't personally believe China will ever try to invade Taiwan in the traditional sense, they're just not that stupid.

Of far greater concern is their increasing belligerence in their "sphere of influence" including the south china sea and surrounding island chains.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by jiggawatts on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @02:44AM (#38095270)
The problem is that everyone was saying the same sort of thing about Russia and Ukraine right up until the first tanks started to roll over the border.
Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by sho on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @03:37AM (#38095525)
I know the situations look superficially similar - big state rattling its sabres at smaller state, then actually going through with it - but when you dig deeper, they're not even remotely comparable.

There's 100km of sea between Taiwan and China. Not China (nor anyone else) has anything close to the blue water amphibious assault fleet it would take for an effective invasion force to cross it. It would take multiple years to build such a fleet, impossible to hide, and while they built it Taiwan and her allies would assemble the world's largest anti-shipping missile arsenal. I don't want to sound flippant, but I doubt a single ship would make it to within 10km of Taiwan.

Or forget amphibious assault, say China tries to go airborne. An even longer period unmistakably building an unprecedented heavy cargo aircraft fleet. An even longer period for Taiwan and her allies to build her already impressive air defences into an impregnable shield. Again, not a single aircraft makes it even over Taiwan's territorial waters.

The Russian experience has actually been eye-opening, but not in the direction you assumed. Developments in missile technology have totally changed the game. Even today, the vastly superior Russian air force cannot fly over ukrainian territory. The Black Sea Fleet has been driven away - and Ukraine does not even have a navy! And even given their massive advantages in size and military strength, it's far from clear that Russia will prevail - far from it.

No, you can't really compare the two. Russia could always have invaded any of their neighbours if they decided to. China literally can't invade Taiwan, not if you assume even the most basic preparation and competence of herself and her allies. The best they could do is a blockade, and hope for capitulation.

All of this in my own non-professional opinion of course, but I'm not completely uneducated on the topic. There's more - far more - information laying things out much better than I ever could, I encourage anyone overly concerned about an imminent war over Taiwan to seek it out.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by ChatGTP on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @03:21AM (#38095452)
I was going to say the same thing.

It seems missiles don’t solve all the things else there would be an “invasion” on going for 600+ days.

I guess war is harder than Internet comments.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by wddkcs on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @02:56AM (#38095320)
Even if they had no designs on Taiwan, China would still be in U.S. crosshairs.
Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by ianai on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @04:26AM (#38095799)
Nope. The US gave China most favored nation status and free trade for 40 something years. Instead of pushing China away, the US locked arms with them and reintroduced them to the world economy on favorable terms. Then ignored decades of malfeasance by China. (Exchange rate fixing by Chinas central bank. Unfair trade practices moving production from the US to China. And now, propaganda on US soil.)

The crosshairs are up because China has made threats and become a threat to world peace.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by wddkcs on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:58AM (#38097590)
Yes, 'just walk away' from international policy and leave the United States to control global affairs, what a totally reasonable position for China, one of the most populous and powerful nations on earth.

The United States turns the weak into allies, and it's allies into enemies. We gave Russia $180 billion in today's currency after WWII. After the collapse of the USSR, the US was the one to welcome Russia into the World bank and IMF. After 2001, Russia was widely considered our closest strategic partner in the war on terror. [1] Now our reckless expansion of NATO has led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Russians.

We practically created the Taliban and ISIS, or at least gave them the tools and circumstance to be lethally effective. We created the circumstance for the Iranian revolution, the Cuban revolution, countless others that have hurt us since.

Of course we embraced China, we're a python looking to smother them.

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/85962.htm

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by orwin on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @02:12PM (#38102416)
I agree on the Isis point, but the 'reckless expansion of Nato' talking point ought to die. NATO wasn't expanding at all before Russians invasion of Ukraine. The last 'expansion' was France rejoining the integrated commandment in 2008. It was even shrinking, with a lot of tension concerning financing and boots on the ground. Also, it wasn't really clear if Turkiye wanted to stay in long-term (pre-covid at least), because of the tensions with Greece and France. There were movements to leave at least part of NATO in at least France and Germany. Who were becoming close Russia allies within NATO.

Ukraine couldn't have joined NATO as long as it was in a civil war anyway. I'm pretty sure most non Ex-Varsovie-pact NATO nations would've voted against anyway (sweet Russian gas).

This was a war decided by Putin because he could do it.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by wddkcs on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:47AM (#38109109)
The war was decided because Putin had no choice. America was openly and brazenly interfering in Ukrainian politics.[1] What possible point could that have? Why groom an Ukrainian government unless it is going to be leveraged? The expansion of U.S. influence directly against Russia's weak underbelly is the expansion of NATO I reference, because it portends Ukraine's adoption into NATO.

See Washington Post 2004 [2], and leaks of the Nuland transcript in 2014 [3]. They tell the same story. The U.S. has potentially always intended to renege on our stance at the end (pause?) of the Cold War.[4] Even if agree that the U.S. never promised to enlarge NATO, Putin's repeated warnings that he views U.S. adventurism in Ukraine as a provocation were clear. Personally I see the rationality of his stance. [5]

Putin is reacting the the same way Biden would if China moved nukes to Cuba. Those are the stakes our interference in Ukraine threatens in his view. No wonder Russia is spending hundreds of thousands of lives to forestall it.

This statement from Yanukovych upon his resignation is telling:

On 14 February, Yanukovych had said: "I want to say that I was incited, and I'm incited to use various methods and ways how to settle the situation, but I want to say I don't want to be at war. I don't want any decisions made using such a radical way." He called on all politicians to refrain from radicalism and to understand that "there is a line that shouldn't be crossed, and this line is law".[6] A statement made in regard to his circumstances but I wonder if his government hadn't fallen, would Ukraine would be at war now.

Ultimately I do not justify or condone Putin's invasion. Neither do I justify or condone the U.S.'s involvement in Ukraine post USSR. Insofar as we are arguing about root causes to the war, the 2021 international environment seems to rival the national entanglements that precipitated WWI. Blaming Putin or NATO totally is both too much and too little.

[1] https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/russia-s-ukraine...

[2] https://www.americanprogress.org/article/meddling-in-ukraine...

[3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

[4] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russi...

[5] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-e...

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by alephnerd on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @10:56PM (#38094105)
> I dont get why americans are scared of us: we're just as scared of them.

Agreed. I'm not pro-CCP in any way, shape, or form, but the rhetoric and jingoism coming from politicians in both the US and China is stupid, and will end up causing an accidental escalation. Look at the whole balloon fiasco. Relations really need to normalize or the world is in a world of hurt.

I also blame a lack of English and Mandarin fluency in China and US respectively for causing this issue. The average Chinese or American doesn't get a chance to see life on the other side, so people end up building orientalized images.

Also, ime on the Hill, most of the people making China policy weren't Asian American nor had strong experience with Chinese (or Asian in general) culture on the ground. A lot of this was due to imo discriminatory hiring practices that prevented people with "ties" to a specific region from becoming a specialist for that area.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by TerrifiedMouse on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:16PM (#38094245)
I doubt it’s a language or cultural problem.

The CCP just aren’t very nice people.

US politicians are taking advantage of the situation to score populist points at home - but their caution towards China isn’t totally unwarranted.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by alephnerd on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:37PM (#38094355)
Journalists aren't sent abroad as much anymore.

After 2008, most news bureaus shut down their foreign offices, and whoever is left tends to stay within a bubble around the main bureau in that country, while sourcing news from freelancers.

In addition, when you can't see or understand social media in another language and on an entirely different ecosystem of platforms, you end up getting a warped view of the world.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by chii on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:57PM (#38094469)
> Journalists aren't sent abroad as much anymore.

when the CCP arrests people for reporting things they dont like, it's no wonder foreign journalists don't want to go there.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by chrischen on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @11:59AM (#38100126)
You can’t just call the billions of people in China CCP. And they also aren’t just pro US shills either. Unwarranted or not Chinese in China overwhelmingly support their own government over others, and this is in fact attributable to culture because anyone who is not Chinese is referred to in the language as an “outside country person.”

Your comment also exemplifies the sort of Berlin wall of cultural exchange between the two countries. You refer to the CCP as this sort of opaque not so nice organization but in fact the political system of the two nations are not so different if viewed as a whole system rather than the superficial parts. Sure China has one party with overreaching power over industry and corporations. But when you see the US system as a whole it’s not too different with corporations controlling both parties (you’ll see they often contribute to both Democrats and Republicans). One party, controlling corporations vs corporations controlling both parties. Not much difference in the end.

A lot in the west sort of just have a vague understanding of the workings of Chinese politics, and even less about the day to day life and well being of an average Chinese person. This is mostly due to the fault of China though, limiting cultural exports and making it difficult to get tourism visas for westerners. I’m not sure what that’s about. Chinese have a better understanding of foreign life but probably still a bit lacking in terms of understanding foreign politics. And even though there are a lot of overseas Chinese there’s just way more Chinese people who don’t know about the west apart from pop culture just because there are billions of Chinese (raw numbers).

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by menshiki on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:45PM (#38094404)
> I also blame a lack of English and Mandarin fluency in China and US respectively for causing this issue. The average Chinese or American doesn't get a chance to see life on the other side, so people end up building orientalized images.

I doubt the lack of English and Mandarin fluency is a big factor here. The CCP made a deliberate choice to isolate China from the outside world as much as possible.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by alephnerd on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:56PM (#38094464)
The crackdown on English only began around 2020-21, yet even in much more laid back times in China there wasn't much cultural exchange outside of the elites.

WhatsApp and FB used to be popular for a hot second (and still were in Xinjiang and Tibet until crackdowns in 2016-18), and it used to be easy for non-Chinese nationals to join WeChat or SinaQQ until 2017-19, yet most American commentators wouldn't go on there to get a feel of discourse on the other side, or go to a Tier 2/3/4 city, while Taiwanese, Korean, and Japanese tourists, journalists, and businesspeople would.

People forget that most Asian Americans would could bridge the gap tend to be on the younger end (10s-30s) but most decision makers are in their 60s-70s. It's the same issue across the Pacific in China as well.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by berserk1010 on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:22PM (#38094275)
Most of the world, not just Americans, are angry at the Chinese government for releasing a virus that killed millions worldwide, and debilitated millions more via long covid and post covid effects like loss of smell and taste. A virus that killed their loved ones and their heroes.

Most of the world, not just Americans, are scared of the Chinese governments' utmost focus on nationalism and military in the last 2 years, in exchange for economic stability. At its ability to build warships at 20 to 40 times faster than United States. At its ability to reinforce Russian military and its war against a nascent democracy in Europe.

And you see, some of the world are annoyed that the Chinese, despite 1.2B large, cannot take down a mere 100M CCP party members - members that have brazenly started to oppress people like yourself with each passing day. Zeroing out your bank account. Saddle you with fines and bogus taxes. Murdered your reform hero Li Keqiang last week and kept you quiet.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by PickledHotdog on Tuesday October 31, 2023 @11:39PM (#38094360)
I mean, that is certainly an opinion
Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by gaoryrt on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @04:26AM (#38095798)
Yeah, they also insist that the earth is not flat.
Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by xyzelement on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @12:15AM (#38094537)
Thank you for this perspective. Coming from a naive place - why is china childless? I know there was a "one child policy" many years ago and I don't think it's there now - why aren't people having kids?

Here in the west we obviously have low birth rates too, having to do with erosion of gender roles and family values and woke excuses like "it's bad for the environment." I don't imagine those factors to be in play in China - what is?

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by chii on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @12:20AM (#38094565)
I think it's a similar reason to the west's low birth rate : women have more choice and therefore, a larger portion is choosing to have kids later in life (or are finding it more difficult to get a partner, as they require one that surpasses themselves in earning/status etc).

I think you will find that rural areas of china has a higher birth rate than urban areas, as the opportunities in rural areas are fewer. But as more and more people move to urban areas for economic prosperity, the same birthrate will befall them just like in western advanced economies.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by JackMorgan on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @07:37AM (#38096967)
Low birth rates are happening because no one has enough money for kids and a place to house them even with two working parents. Not because of "woke excuses" and "erosion of gender roles".

Try giving every couple in America a 5x raise and a free house and watch a ton of kids be born the next five years.

Your argument is similar to saying "no one buys houses anymore because everyone is obsessed with tiny houses and van dwelling". No, they are obsessed with these things because it's the only thing they have any chance of affording.

If you split up the wealth concentrated in the top 1%, so we have an economy more like the 1950s, every family is about 2.5 million dollars richer. That's a house, only one spouse working, maybe a vacation house, two cars, and several kids.

Instead we have people living with roommates and parents trying to save enough money just to survive.

This nonsense that no one is having kids because of "family values" and "morals" is billionaire propaganda to distract everyone from the fact that they took all our money, and we need unions to get it back. Not more church, not getting rid of woke (whatever that means).

Unions, we need unions and strong labor protections to get our money back from the billionaires who took it inch by inch for the last 70 years. [1]

[1] https://youtu.be/mcgC-kuPEuo?si=KDvDPEYjTZtbqOeM

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by thedailymail on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:29AM (#38097345)
Agree with many of your points, but to make the 84+ million families in the US richer by $2.5 million each would require more than 200 trillion dollars. (Current GDP is around $25 trillion.)
Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by JackMorgan on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @09:28PM (#38107807)
Good point, it seems the top 10% owns 100 trillion [1], so spreading that to the remaining 74 million families would only result in a net increase of 1.2 million per family. I must have found an inaccurate source for the previously stated 2.5 million.

Math now corrected, I still want my extra 1.2 million back.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite...

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by xyzelement on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @08:54AM (#38097556)
I appreciate your chain of logic but don’t agree with it.

If what you are saying was true, rich families would have more kids than poor families in the US and the opposite is true.

The families that had 5/7 kids a hundred years ago were objectively way poorer than the “I can’t afford a kid” crowd today.

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by orwin on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @02:31PM (#38102753)
Rich families do have more kids than working poor families in all western nations.

If you're a poor, 2 person household in a city, you have two main choices (all other choices means leaving the city you live in) :

- Work and stay poor, but comfortable enough. This means maybe getting enough money on the side to buy a big appartement then start a family at 40-45 yo (20 years ago you had the same choice, except the age was 30-35. It's worst in more expensive cities).

- Try to get on welfare and have kids asap. You'll have to live in a worse area, with less disposable income, you'll be a bit hungry sometimes, but it might be worth it. If you have family/support system in the area whose reputation can protect you from the worse, it's all good (hence 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants have more opportunities to make this choice, as their support system is often stronger than 5th-Xth gen immigrants or native Americans).

Do you have kids yourself? Are you a low-income worker? How much do you have each months after paying rent+utilities+food? Because I remember clearly my parents earning less than that cost, and trying to do calculations to avoid downgrading to a smaller house. They couldn't avoid it and I shared a room with my brother until I was 16, when I joined a 'boarding school' (closest translation I could find, but it was public, free and not at all like Anglo boarding schools).

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by xyzelement on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @05:00PM (#38105144)
// Rich families do have more kids than working poor families in all western nations.

Not true at all. Please see this data[1] for birth rate by income level (US, 2019)

Lowest income women give 40% more births than the richest women.

The relationship is consistent across income levels. The more you make the fewer kids you have.

[1]https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-fam...

Re:What China's slow-motion real estate crisis means for the... by Supermancho on Wednesday November 01, 2023 @09:22AM (#38097839)
It's important to consider social nets. The poor don't have children in China, regardless of the existing Chinese social programs. These programs favor the working class and penalize children (who produce nothing). The younger poor practice varying degrees of Tang ping (Lying Flat) to survive, with the amenities their peers share, and that doesn't work with children. Interviews with single women in China are largely in Chinese (as you would expect) and the answers were economic related 80% of the time in 2019. No, I don't have a Chinese whitepaper to point to. There's just no evidence to the contrary, since it's been the trend for a number of years.

----

It's also important to consider the pollution. Acid rain, thick soot smog, polluted city water wells, and unbelievably poor food prep/regulation are all commonplace. This has impacted fertility rates across the board, but especially in females.

The Chinese population is roughly 1.2:1 male to female, under the current 3-child policy enacted ~2016.