News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by SoftTalker on Sunday October 22, 2023 @12:58PM (#37977037)
This is indicative of a lack of competition.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by joe_the_user on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:09PM (#37977134)
No, just no

Health care is a situation where competition cannot be a spur to reasonable costs because individual consumers are simply not in the position to make the kind of "free market" choices that economists (or more often free market ideologues) expect they'll make.

Moreover, the malignant and abusive US health care system is in fact a product of layer upon layer of failed "efforts to create competition" intended to reduce cost "through competition" to the point that by now all the abusers really know the dance and will be profiting next year from any further or replacement layer you add this year. (and "no regulation then!" as the US 1900 results in doctors being just heroin dealers - like my great grand father interestingly enough).

Most other industrialized nations have a state run medical system that's far superior and cheaper than the US system. They didn't solve their problem with "competition".

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by userinanother on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:15PM (#37977180)
There is no competition because there is no market transparency at all. There is also no pricing transparency, the prices aren’t even posted and you can’t know what anything costs before you get the bill. How can there ever be competition in that environment
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by fires10 on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:36PM (#37977398)
Most medical decisions are not shopped. It has nothing to do with competition. Quality of care is first and foremost for me. I want to live costs be damned. Only rarely will cost come into it as a decision for me. Only on things I don't need. This is for both emergency and non-emergency care. I don't know of anyone who seriously and consistently looks at costs when making medical decisions. I usually have higher priorities.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by Tostino on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:50PM (#37977519)
You don't know people who live near the margins then. Cost was pretty much the primary decider for me prior to making a decent living, so much so that I put off rotator cuff surgery for 10 years because I couldn't afford to have it done, no matter how much I "shopped around".
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by sokka_h2otribe on Sunday October 22, 2023 @02:09PM (#37977677)
I think the posters comment was in a vacuum- I, too, did not consider cost when I got a surgery.

It was part because costs aren't transparent, but also because the costs were the same to me after deductible.

The only truly cost aware folks in the system would be Amish on community insurance funds or similar odd edge cases

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by SoftTalker on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:50PM (#37977524)
The vast majority of medical care is not life and death. It is completely routine. It's getting vaccines, it's getting checkups, it's getting antibiotics for your sinus infection, it's getting treatment for sprains and strains. You're not going to be price-conscious on any of that? Do you go to the mayo clinic for your annual physical?
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by fires10 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @07:05PM (#38019494)
Yes, I actually go to the Mayo Clinic for primary care. It is actually cheaper than the rural doctors and hospital I live near. There is no shopping around for cost. The decision is do I trust the doctor or not. I drive to Mayo because the local doctors make to many mistakes and are not familiar enough with a variety of ailments.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by userinanother on Sunday October 22, 2023 @02:31PM (#37977856)
The market is so non transparent you can’t shop for quality or cost. The system forces you into random provider to optimize allocation efficiency not cost or quality
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by Jensson on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:29PM (#37978800)
> Most medical decisions are not shopped .. Quality of care is first and foremost for me

So you shop around for quality? That is still shopping around.

If customers could try to get the highest quality for their money that also works, doesn't have to try to find the cheapest.

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by joe_the_user on Sunday October 22, 2023 @03:34PM (#37978362)
There is no competition because there is no market transparency at all.

Wrong, there is no competition in medical care both because in the end it's not possible for lay person to make informed decisions about the spectrum of treatments available when they are under time pressure and there is no way to have choice when you have a single hospital serving a substantial area (and other ways that health care is a "natural monopoly").

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by userinanother on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:59PM (#37979045)
Those are additional problems in some situations. But most hospital care is not immediately life threatening and people in major cities have access to 4-5 different hospitals sometimes more
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by fzeroracer on Sunday October 22, 2023 @03:57PM (#37978532)
They do post the prices. But how often do you actually go through and examine each code to see the prices? How do you know when you go into a hospital from an ambulance that your issue is due to say, kidney stones and not cancer?

Price transparency works in an environment where a consumer knows all of the choices they have to make. For medical issues we can often only guess when it comes to critical problems, and even other protracted issues that you are aware of can be complex and hard to navigate. If you think price transparency will help then I reckon you're someone that hasn't actually been critically ill before.

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by userinanother on Sunday October 22, 2023 @05:00PM (#37979054)
The prices they post are not real prices. Nobody pays the price posted. It’s just a thing they do for compliance reasons
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by fzeroracer on Sunday October 22, 2023 @05:04PM (#37979076)
Okay if your argument is that they're lying about prices, then how is price transparency going to help? They will keep lying about the prices, or obfuscate prices further by breaking them down into smaller pieces.

Like the reason why insurance companies etc don't care about price transparency is because of the above. You're demanding something that won't work and will never work, unless the government steps in and says XYZ must cost YYY.

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by userinanother on Sunday October 22, 2023 @05:51PM (#37979428)
They aren’t lying so much as having different price tiers for everyone. The published price is the maximum price, it’s paid for only by auto insurance companies typically. Everyone else has a negotiated lower price.

Medicare prices for all would be a solution for example but doing so would both explode Medicare and bankrupt the hospitals

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by s1artibartfast on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:34PM (#37977386)
You argument only holds true for insurance.

Europe arguably has more competition in the healthcare manufacturing and labor sectors than the US.

Europe has the same pharma and device companies. Im not aware of any country that has price controls.

What Europe has is purchasing controls. If something is too expensive, the national insurance plans simply dont buy it and dont provide it.

This is what the US lacks.

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by hoseja on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:23PM (#37977280)
I don't see a reason pharma industry couldn't function like food industry.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by RandomLensman on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:29PM (#37977340)
Do you want anyone to be able to create their own pharmaceuticals?
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by hoseja on Sunday October 22, 2023 @03:46PM (#37978448)
Actually yes.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by RandomLensman on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:53PM (#37978994)
Fair, but it's a very long way to that in terms of boxing the required capabilities (ignoring regulation). So for that to have an effect on markets in pharmaceuticals will need a lot patience.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by BartjeD on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:00PM (#37977050)
And also of regulatory capture.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by SoftTalker on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:00PM (#37977055)
Yes I was just about to edit my above post and add that.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by stevebmark on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:03PM (#37977080)
Competition doesn’t drive down prices in American healthcare, it usually increases prices.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by crobertsbmw on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:17PM (#37977212)
Interesting. Do you have any support for this claim?
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by throwawayqqq11 on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:14PM (#37977173)
When you take in the rising inequality, i would go further and call it indicative of systemic market failure. Imo only propper regulation can fix the shortsightedness of privileged middle man.

Edit: Does looking at all the other way better responses might get you thinking, that "free market" is a harmful ideology, at least in the presence of overwhelming public interest of heath care?

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by atoav on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:08PM (#37977120)
What you think about doesn't apply to healthcare. You cannot pick your emergency room like you might select ddifferent groceries, because if you do, you die.

It is not as if there are other nations with formidable health care systems that are way more efficient that one could look into.

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by silverpepsi on Sunday October 22, 2023 @02:43PM (#37977939)
This isn't real

Every business, every business has people who go in with the "no matter the cost" situation. But the market sets the schedule of pricing, so if either their status is not "revealed" or the business is simply not allowed to alter the price scedule from person to person, then it is literally no different than

-A rich family deciding they'll eat at the amusement park without asking prices, and no matter what, even when a small coke has reached $10

-A guy who walks into a new restaurant after his first 48 hour fast and after payday atd decides to completely ignore the prices and just order unconditionally

-A taxi driver get a flat outside of a tire shop by pure chance and it is the start of a ten hour planned shift etc. ad Infinitum

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by atoav on Monday October 23, 2023 @04:42AM (#37983076)
Our goals with a health system are:

- give as many people as possible health care

- do it in a cheap and efficient way

- without stifling innovation

If markets are a good way to do that, sure. But let me ask you one question: Who do you think will negotiate better prices for any given procedure or medication:

1. A nation-wide health insurance that makes up 90% of a companies volume

2. The solitary regular Joe who is in pain and uncertainty about their health

No need to answer me, because the numbers and real world examples already exist and this is a known market dynamic (bigger buyers can negotiate better prices). This is why patients in nations that have such systems pay sometimes multiple magnitudes less than people in the US.

Now let me ask you another question: How would you structure a health care market if your goal was to extract as much money as possible and how would it differ from what you guys already have?

If you ask me, the market for healthcare in the US work as intended. Just not for the customers.

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by javajosh on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:16PM (#37977192)
Healthcare services are not a free market. The idea that competition can drive down costs would be funny if it wasn't driven by such cynicism. Like a lawyer buying time with objections they know they will lose, the "let the market fix things" people push for price transparency, which they don't get, and then they'll push for time to let that work out. It won't because people who buy healthcare - you and me - don't shop. And we won't shop. Insurance companies don't shop either. Providers hire admins who's whole job is to game the system, which enriches the provider slightly, employs the admin, and extracts wealth from insurance companies and ultimately patients.

The hard truth is that, ultimately, providers, are to blame. Skilled professionals should NEVER say "I don't know how much it costs" to their clients and get away with it. It's your JOB to know how much it costs and to understand the experience of your patient. I get it that you don't WANT to know, that it's complicated and depressing. I get that because all patients get that. That is not an excuse for not paying attention to the details.

It is providers who regularly make their patients wait for hours after the appointment time. It's providers who order expensive and unnecessary tests for every condition, or who refer to multiple specialists. Each of these decisions increases the cost of care, the provider profit margin, and the stress on the patient. Because the provider is ultimately the one with the skill that the patient needs, I blame them for this systemic failure. If you're a doctor and you give in to the status quo, hire a large staff of billing agents and write scripts for all the tests and drugs you can, YOU are the problem. If you took your oath seriously, you'd never accept the way things are. Instead you advocate to maximize your profit margins instead of patient outcomes, and as a result you make the entire system sick. With any luck, it will get so sick it will die.

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by perryizgr8 on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:00PM (#37977056)
Also of over regulation.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by isykt on Sunday October 22, 2023 @01:48PM (#37977512)
When’s the last time you were in the back of an ambulance telling the driver which hospital to take you to?
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by FireBeyond on Sunday October 22, 2023 @02:38PM (#37977913)
As someone who is a paramedic, we will absolutely listen to you if you say you want to go to hospital X, not Y.

If you're unable, we'll take you to the one that best is equipped to deal with your issue.

HOWEVER... the insurer. If you're talking about two hospitals in the same town or part of town, no big deal. If you want to go to the hospital 15 minutes beyond that? Your insurer will deny the ambulance bill. Their argument was that "if you were sick enough to require an ambulance, you should have been transported to the closest facility, stabilized, and then transferred to your preferred facility" versus taking a longer ambulance ride.

Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by tbihl on Sunday October 22, 2023 @02:11PM (#37977692)
The principle in that case is elasticity of demand, not competition. As in, my mother always made sure to beat ambulances to us when school or sports reported us injured, because she was worried we wouldn't be confident enough to shoo them away on our own.
Re:Who profits most from America's baffling health-care system? by s1artibartfast on Sunday October 22, 2023 @03:24PM (#37978279)
how much of healthcare spending is related to emergency procedures?

How much is scheduled weeks in advance? how much is scheduled months in advance.