Palestinians were expelled from their land based on their race, they cannot get Israeli citizenship despite having lived there for centuries, while a Jew from New York can get that citizenship by virtue of his race.
> Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense.
You're right. Israel was at war with Palestinians long before Hamas came to be, and made no effort to coexist with them under a system of segregation. Their actions are better described as 'genocide'.
> mass murder of civilians.
At least 14,212 Palestinians and 2,746 Israelis have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. - https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html
I assume you're of the opinion that the Israeli deaths were due to unprovoked attacks, and the Palestinian deaths were justified retaliation, albeit with regrettable collateral damage?
Israel has over 2M Arab citizens. An Arab supreme court Justice and one of the most liberal human rights laws anywhere. This just isn't true.
Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens but that is due to the fact that these territories aren't a part of Israel. This is bad but also leaves an opening to a Palestinian state in the future.
Most of the Palestinians who don't live in Israel left after the independence war. This war was started by Palestinians who were unhappy with the division of the land. They lost and some ran off. Those who stayed got full citizenship.
Those who ran can't come back. This is sad but understandable. To be fair, many Jews lived in Arab countries prior to the formation of Israel. They can't go back either and also lost all of their possessions when they ran.
The right of return is specifically aimed for Jews since Israel is defined as the homeland of the Jewish people. Yes, it's a problematic law but a special case, it's the exception not the rule.
> You're right. Israel was at war with Palestinians long before Hamas came to be, and made no effort to coexist with them under a system of segregation. Their actions are better described as 'genocide'.
Nonsense.
Israelis co-existed with the Arab populace. Local Arab leaders wrote congratulatory letters to the Israeli government after the 1967 6 day war. There were violent incidence and discrimination for sure. But also amazing co-existence. Famously, the Jews in Haifa stopped the local Arab population from running in the independence war and guaranteed their safety.
There is no segregation in Israel. Some cities are Jewish and some are Arab. Some are mixed e.g. Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel-Aviv/Jaffa etc. are all huge mixed cities. It's illegal to discriminate based on race/religion/gender or sexual orientation. Does it happen? Yes. Do people sue and win? Also yes.
> > mass murder of civilians.
> At least 14,212 Palestinians and 2,746 Israelis have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. - https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html
You're mixing between the occupied territories and Israel. Jews were killed mostly in terror attacks which included MANY suicide bombings during those years. Retaliation took many forms but this is war. Notice children got killed in both sides.
I 100% agree the occupation should stop. But the Hamas specifically places children in the line of fire to create these situations. E.g. just the other day the Hamas claimed Israel killed 500 people in a hospital. Turns out it was a misfired missile they tried to shoot at Israel. They did that a lot over the past few years.
Israel makes a lot of effort to minimize civilian casualties. But how would you fight against an enemy that puts on suicide vests and blows up busses en-mass?
That enemy is driven by an extremist religious dogma and believes that children who die are rewarded in heaven. They use children as human shields and have no moral compass.
I agree Israel should do better. But it's not a simple task.
> I assume you're of the opinion that the Israeli deaths were due to unprovoked attacks, and the Palestinian deaths were justified retaliation, albeit with regrettable collateral damage?
I want a peaceful solution. So do 80-90 percent of Palestinians and Israelis. There are the crazy people on both sides who keep destroying that chance for peace.
Making the rhetoric more extreme and supporting these psychos (like the Hamas) is damaging to both sides.
The depopulation of Palestine was no accident. The Zionist movement sought to create a Jewish state in a territory where Jews were a minority. On the eve of the Nakba, Jews constituted 30 percent of the population and owned 7 percent of the land. Within months, they forged a state on 78 percent of the territory where they flipped the demographic ratio from 30:70 Jews to Arabs to 90:10. To think such dramatic demographic change happens by accident—only coincidently suiting decades old Zionist aims—is dangerous naiveté. Such things happen only by design. — https://www.thedailybeast.com/nakba-denials-must-be-condemne...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Natio...
Look, I get it, you want a country of your own, and consider some Palestinian displacement a necessary consequence. Can't make an omelette etc. But people would respect Israel a lot more if it just admitted it's a Jewish ethno-state borne of conquest, instead of peddling excuses and rationalizations how they just want to ensure democracy, and expelling the previous inhabitants of what is now their land is just an unfortunate coincidence that is not their fault.
Dude. I live next to Jaffa and it is 100% an Arab city. Not "depopulated". Neither is Haifa etc.
We can go back to 48 in which case we can start talking about the staggering amount of death dished out by both sides. It's tragic but doesn't help anyone. It also predates modern law and democracy in Israel. It predates human rights laws etc.
There was a large amount of immigration to Israel in the 40s as Jews fled the Holocaust. Once borders opened up they moved in and also fled Arab countries where they were quickly deemed the enemy. People lost everything there too. I'm not saying the Palestinians aren't a victim here, but don't pretend they weren't an aggressor either. This was a bad situation with victims and aggressors on both sides.
> Such things happen only by design.
This is nonsense and speculative. It's inconsistent with the facts that some communities remained whole while others were indeed chased away.
> People would respect Israel a lot more if it just admitted it's a Jewish ethno-state borne of conquest, instead of peddling excuses and rationalizations how they just want to ensure democracy, and expelling the previous inhabitants of what is now their land is just an unfortunate coincidence that is not their fault.
This is ridiculous. People would most certainly not respect Israel more if it made such a claim.
Why doesn't the USA make this exact claim for native Americans? Or really, any country that exists in the Americas? Australia? Hell, the UKs crown is German ruling over Danes.
If the unfortunate coincidence would have gone the other way it's a good chance that Jews would no longer exist. I'm sorry for the suffering of the Palestinian people. I truly am. But when that happened instead of talking to Israel the surrounding countries ganged up and attacked multiple times. The only reason Israel has these territories to begin with is that 3 armies surrounded Israel and attacked it together.
After the 1948 Palestine War, most of its Arab population fled or were expelled, and the city became part of then newly established state of Israel, and was unified into a single municipality with Tel Aviv in 1950. Today, Jaffa is one of Israel's mixed cities, with approximately 37% of the city being Arab. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa
Yes, it's a single municipality, my kids go to school there. Tel Aviv grew to be bigger than Jaffa we have huge towers here and Jaffa is an ancient city so you can't build up there.
The benefit of being a part of Tel Aviv means it has the same municipal services and advantages of being a part of the richest municipality in Israel.
You wrote "I live next to Jaffa and it is 100% an Arab city. Not "depopulated"" The wiki states it is only 37% Arab, and was depopulated, via expulsion. I guess you're trying to stretch the fact that the expulsion was not permanently 100% effective into alleging it never happened at all.
I highly doubt the 37% number though. I'm guessing it includes new construction on the outskirts as Arabic is the main language around in the street and in most shops. Looking at the Hebrew page there are more than 46,400 Arabs living in Tel-Aviv/Jaffa compared to 414,200 Jews most of whom live in the Tel Aviv region. Some Jews live in Jaffa but it's still very much an Arab city.
I agree very much, with one caveat though: Hamas isn't claiming anything about being "the only democracy in the Middle East", it doesn't export military surveillance tech (to my knowledge), it doesn't receive substantial support from my government. So while I agree that with friends like Hamas, you don't really need enemies, I just can't get worked up about that. They do what they do and what I resent and stand against -- but they don't involve me. (the right-wing government of) Israel very much tries to involve me, by proxy. To Hamas, I'm just an infidel; to Likud, I'm an useful idiot in spe. They claim we're similar, playing the same game in the same ball park, and thereby force me to refute them.
E.g. at the moment Israel is still on a "neutral side" in the Russia/Ukraine conflict which is insane.
I hope this is a temporary thing. I hope that Israel can leave this dark period and be more worthy.
It has to! Israel cannot give in to the very aspirations of antisemites, but it also must not become like its persecutors.
As a German, I cannot even begin to say what I feel, but it's a lot. It's a tangent, but I have to think of the Israeli movie "Walk on Water" (which I love, as kitschy as it may be), and which kinda sums up what I'm struggling to express. I sincerely wish Israel to be safe and sound and something to be proud of (or jealous of), and that includes the "heart", not just the territory. Antisemites aren't scared of Israeli atrocities, they're smug about them, they love to be able to point to them. And I wish there was nothing to point to. That wouldn't make antisemitism go away, but it would put Israel on better footing, I genuinely believe that.
There is a Chinese proverb, "he who rides a tiger is afraid to dismount". I think this applies to the jingoists of both sides (and certainly Netanyahu), they have nowhere to go to except to climb even higher. But as you said, most "normal people" dragged into any conflict are really just normal people and don't wish harm on anyone. People need to find a way to talk to each other without their "leaders". Keep your head up, and thanks for speaking out.
It can't as long as support for (and opposition to) the forces that are dependent on keeping Israel in that dark period is conflated with support for (and opposition to) Israel.
That's not the only barrier, but it is a sufficient one.
> Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense
Yeah, nobody does that. All the major human rights organisations (Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and in Israel, B'Tselem) agree in defining the regime imposed by Israel in the West Bank (not Gaza!) as apartheid. This is because an Israeli citizen in the West Bank (outside Israel proper) enjoys civil rights that his neighbours don't have- despite the power over both ultimately resting in the Israeli state. However, also don't forget that the West Bank and Gaza are part of the same country (or aspirational one)- so it's not exactly fair to say that the people of Gaza should not be bothered by what happens in the West Bank and vice-versa, they are just two regions of the same country. We would not say that it is unjustified for Texans to go to war if New York were attacked.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra...
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-...
https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid
> Hamas is the reason we don't have a Palestinian state
Hamas is only in power in Gaza. The West Bank is governed by the much more moderate Fatah, and they still don't have a Palestinian state. However, Hamas is obviously a problem: so much so that it's known that Israel secretly supported it to weaken and divide their more moderate political counterparts. Also, note that the Likud party (Netanyahu's) has denied the right to the existence of a Palestinian state since its first charter:
"a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform...
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-...
https://www.tbsnews.net/hamas-israel-war/how-israel-went-hel...
> Hamas is only in power in Gaza. The West Bank is governed by the much more moderate Fatah, and they still don't have a Palestinian state.
This became the situation after Oslo was effectively dead (thanks to the Hamas).
> However, Hamas is obviously a problem: so much so that it's known that Israel secretly supported it to weaken and divide their more moderate political counterparts:
THIS!!!
But it isn't a "secret". Netanyahu said it out loud in 2019, I don't have the link though.
He purposely supported the Hamas to weaken the PLO/Fatah and prevent the chance of a Palestinian state. He did some of that as far back as the 90's during the Oslo accord to stop that process.
It's insane. We've been trying to get rid of that f*ing criminal but he's a sticky demagogue who always lands on his feet. Even now when he clearly bears a lot of the fault for this recent attack he still holds onto power and refuses to accept responsibility.
"a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
"From the river to the sea", indeed.
That's a very good and indeed sad point. I think we were very close to a Palestinian state in the 90s. The stars aligned and both sides had leaders with enough sway to pull that off.
The Likud was beaten and then Hamas started blowing up things. That's a moment in time I'm talking about when I'm blaming Hamas for the lack of Palestinian state.
That moment in time is gone. Even if the Hamas vanished tomorrow there are no longer leaders on either side who are willing/able to move that dream forward.
Bibi essentially destroyed that potential and also set into the minds of Israelis that there's no partner for peace. Removing the Hamas is one step, removing the Likud is another. Unfortunately, even both of these steps won't be enough to restart that process.
I think Israelis really need to ask themselves if they're sincere in their support for the creation of a Palestinian state. Which entails removing settlements, establishing and respecting an international border, and accepting that they will have to give up land and never, ever, expand Israel by another square centimetre. I saw the huge protests against Netanyahu in the last months- they have been saluted in the West as the proof of the civil conscience of democratic Israelis. However, I have not seen such huge protests, not even much smaller ones, to stop what human rights organisations call apartheid- which is incommensurably worse than a law to limit the powers of the Supreme Court. What is a Supreme Court that allows apartheid worth anyway?
Leaders make peace agreements. They also enforce them by controlling their own people. Peace doesn't spontaneously happen without two people signing an accord. In the past it was Rabin and Arafat. Now Abbas is too weak and so is the liberal wing in Israel. There's no one with the power or motivation to move in that direction.
> In the end, the only voice that has any influence in the West is that of Israel. Palestinians are ignored or blamed.
This is very selective and ignores cases where the UK and USA conspired against Israel in the 50s. It ignores the media coverage in Europe which is often anti-Israeli, specifically the BBC is very pro-Palestinian. It also ignores the mirror image in Arab countries which shows a very biased anti-Israel view of the situation.
Israel is held to a higher standard than the Palestinians. I don't think that's necessarily wrong, Israel is a state not a terrorist organization. But people often forget that. There are still laws and standards.
E.g. a couple of years ago a terrorist tried to stab a soldier and was shot. He was lying down neutralized and a soldier walked up to him and shot him. That soldier went to jail for killing a terrorist. People were upset about that, but it shows there's justice. Even a terrorist deserves justice.
Israel doesn't live up to that standard every time, but it does the right thing in most cases.
> I think Israelis really need to ask themselves if they're sincere in their support for the creation of a Palestinian state.
Many want a Palestinian state and many don't. It's a struggle that has been tearing the Israeli society from within. A long running Palestinian joke is that if they would leave Israel alone the Jews will kill one another in a week.
> Which entails removing settlements, establishing and respecting an international border
Israel did that in the past when it signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. It removed settlements from Gaza and left that area.
> never, ever, expand Israel by another square centimetre.
Israel got these extra territories as a result of a pending attack. It didn't explicitly go out to try and expand its borders and never tried to do that. There are encroaching settlements which I agree are very bad, but they are on top of land that's already occupied.
> to stop what human rights organisations call apartheid
Those happened in the 90s and 80s. They were huge and birthed major movements. These protests led to the Oslo accord. The failure of that (again due in large part to the Hamas) essentially decimated these movements and most of the country now considers this as bunk. "We tried peace, we tried giving them a country and they blew up busses and coffee shops".
I think that's a false narrative as the Palestinians are not a single entity. But it's very hard to make that case today. Especially now. After the Hamas murdered and kidnapped women and children people were celebrating in the streets of Gaza. These pictures (as well as the horrible stuff on social networks) reached the Israeli public. This has brought a level of rage that unfortunately isn't limited only to the Hamas.
> What is a Supreme Court that allows apartheid worth anyway?
I actually agree with that partially, but it would probably be MUCH worse if it weren't for that court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_...
Yet somehow this isn't of any interest to those people making claims of "Israeli apartheid" and demanding boycotts and so on. Very one-sided.
No, its not, and Israel's apartheid predates Hamas (and fostering the development in Gaza of the Islamist network that became Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO was a strategic part of perpetuating it.)
A few years after the PLO laid down its arms Rabin was elected and the Oslo accord took place.
Hamas is the reason we don't have a Palestinian state. They sent suicide bombers during the Oslo accord to stop any chance of peace.
There's a lot of valid criticism we can levy on Israel, I 100% agree with that. Especially against the current government. That's why it's important to focus on real issues e.g. a more reliable organization covering the bad things happening in the territories and Gaza: https://www.btselem.org/