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Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by BirdieNZ on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:23PM (#37908553)
Gentrification, which displaces renters (rents become too expensive for existing tenants so they need to leave the area), will start displacing some land owners as well. LVT would increase due to land value increasing, and the current land owners may not be able to afford the increased tax.

If you don't allow deferment of the tax, pensioners might have to move unwillingly (low income that may not cover the tax). Most proposals allow deferment for retirees until sale of the property, though, so it's kinda a non-issue.

In general, if your circumstances change unexpectedly then you might be unable to pay the tax and thus lose ownership of your property. This already is the case for renters, but it does mean a somewhat reduced sense of security for home owners too. Mind you, this is already the case for any existing property tax or council rates, which exist in many/most places, so it's also kinda a non-issue.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by koolba on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:26PM (#37908584)
> Most proposals allow deferment for retirees until sale of the property, though, so it's kinda a non-issue.

Ah more carve outs for boomers. I knew it had to be in there somewhere.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by jonhohle on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:41PM (#37908736)
My grandmother (greatest generation) built her house in the 50s and lives on a fixed income. Should she be forced to sell (assuming she couldn’t afford LVT) for an investment she took all the risk to develop?

We’re so addicted to spending that anything that leads to generational wealth is fair game for governments to loot?

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by harimau777 on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:26PM (#37909163)
I think that it's less about being addicted to spending and more about people being able to meet their basic needs. With the gap between those with and without wealth growing and income falling behind cost of living, the only way to address people's desire to meet their basic needs is with plans like this.

A much better option would be to target the wealth inequality that is driving a lot of these problems (e.g. by ensuring basic needs like medical care, encouraging unionization, etc.). However, there isn't the political will to do that.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by J_Shelby_J on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:57PM (#37908892)
Where did the value of your grandmother's "generational wealth" come from?

It came from renters and first time home owners putting money into the housing market.

Your grandma is doing the looting.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by jonhohle on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @01:02AM (#37910816)
She (and my grandfather) invested in building in an undeveloped area with their own money. They earned it by working and paying for their house and land.

Now public spenders think she owes them what she spent her life building.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by jncfhnb on Wednesday October 18, 2023 @07:13PM (#37936066)
The only world in which grandma cannot afford her LVT is if the value of her land has grown so high that she can make a disproportionately large gain by selling the house. This is very unlikely. And if it is the case, it’s not like the government is stealing her house, they’re just saying she has to realize some of her enormous unrealized gains.
Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by hahajk on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:47PM (#37908791)
Does she not already pay property tax on her home? And sales tax on her purchases?
Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by lbarrow on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:45PM (#37909358)
The responses here are all assuming your grandmothers taxes would go up. But bear in mind LVTs are intend to replace the existing property tax regime (at least in the US). If your grandmother lives in a quiet suburb or rural area, it's likely that her taxes would decrease under an LVT if the LVT was trying to extract roughly the same amount of overall money as a property taxes regime.

If she lives in the middle of a city, then yes her taxes may increase.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by lmm on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:25PM (#37909736)
> My grandmother (greatest generation) built her house in the 50s

I'd love to build my own house, but it's practically impossible for my generation because of the policies those older generations have voted for.

> and lives on a fixed income. Should she be forced to sell (assuming she couldn’t afford LVT)

Yes. There aren't enough places for the rest of us to live, at least not anywhere where there's work, so those of us who are doing something productive (i.e. not lucky enough to be paid a "fixed income" out of other people's taxes) should get priority. If the older generation doesn't like it, they should make it legal to build more housing so that there's enough for everyone.

> for an investment she took all the risk to develop?

Part of the point of LVT is that it mitigates the risk. If the place where she built it becomes popular, she doesn't just get to trouser all the gains. But if the place where she built it becomes unpopular, her taxes drop.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by bigstrat2003 on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:36PM (#37908679)
You realize that democratic government requires compromise, right? Scoff all you want, but this is the sort of measure which is required to get people to accept policies which directly cost them (but benefit everyone else).
Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by aldonius on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:31PM (#37908635)
I think deferment is reasonable. Especially if it makes the difference in getting real LVT over the line, politically.
Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by ensignavenger on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:33PM (#37908650)
A deferment should be allowed for anyone on one primary residence. Then it isn't a carve out just for boomers. Also, the deferment doesn't mean the taxes don't get paid- they just don't have to be paid until the person moves out or transfers the property (or dies, which triggers a transfer).
Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by eru on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:21PM (#37909698)
A deferment isn't necessary. Banks are happy to do that kind of financial transformation for you via a reverse mortgage.

(However, it might still be a vote winner. Voters aren't exactly the brightest.)

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by ensignavenger on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:45PM (#37909897)
Reverse mortgages are generally only available in the US after you reach a certain age.
Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by eru on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @12:14AM (#37910534)
Interesting. Is that due to federal or state regulation? Or a choice by the banks?
Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by ensignavenger on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:34AM (#37914797)
I am not sure, it seems to be a combination. The FHA requires the homeowner to be 62 or older for an FHA reverse mortgage. I have never seen a private reverse mortgage advertised, but apparently they exist and from what I have read online, are offereed to those as young as 55- but apparently are marketed to those with fairly expensive homes.
Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by tzs on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:47PM (#37908784)
Most people I know who are younger than Boomers plan to someday retire, and so they too will benefit when that time comes.
Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by lbarrow on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:40PM (#37909305)
Yes, that's exactly the idea. In Chicago, where I live, there are surface parking lots in the middle of the downtown surrounded by skyscrapers. In a logical system, the owner of those parking lots would have to pay just as much in land taxes as the skyscraper owners next to them -- and since they couldn't possibly afford to do so, they'd be forced to sell to someone who would develop the land and put it to more productive use. Under the current system, though, the parking lot owner pays peanuts while the skyscraper owner is effectively penalized for putting the land to use.

The gentrification situation is similar: if someone is living in a single-family home in an area that is filling up with apartments, they're using the land much less efficiently than a replacement structure would. As land values slowly increase, the owner would be prompted to eventually sell to someone who would put it to higher value use. You could have some speed bumps in the policy to make sure this doesn't happen too fast, but if you stop it entirely you're just giving up on productive land use.

It's worth noting that property taxes have the same dynamic, since they also incorporate land value in them. The difference though is that _property taxes discourage development_, which contributes to higher rents. Land value taxes do not have this problem; a world where we suddenly swap to LVTs is a world with many more buildings and much lower average rents.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by balderdash on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:47PM (#37909384)
You realize all those parking lots are owned by big developers who want to develop the land, but are waiting for the right conditions…
Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by lbarrow on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:01PM (#37909509)
And right now they can afford to wait forever! But with an LVT they have a big incentive to either develop it immediately or sell to someone else who will.

It's no coincidence that people who support LVTs are typically YIMBYs -- we want to reform urban planning and land use to make it easier to build things.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by eru on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:20PM (#37909683)
> But with an LVT they have a big incentive to either develop it immediately or sell to someone else who will.

An LVT gives no such incentives. LVT is explicitly agnostic about how the land is being used. You pay the same, no matter how the land is being used. That's why it's economically efficient.

However, a conventional property tax (and also income tax and capital gains tax etc) disincentivise developing. An LVT can help raise enough revenue to be able to lower or eliminate those other taxes, and thus indirectly help remove disincentives to developing.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by lbarrow on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:26PM (#37909740)
I think you might be missing the context. The scenario we're discussing is a parking lot surrounded by skyscrapers in the middle of a major city. Under a property tax regime, the owner pays little taxes because the structures on the lot are not valuable. Under an LVT, the owner pays the same (high) taxes as the skyscrapers next to it, which would be obvious uneconomical.

So under property taxes, the parking lot owner can afford to wait and have the lot sit empty; under an LVT, they have an incentive to develop.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by eru on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:47PM (#37909912)
Yes, a property tax system disincentivises developing compared to not having a property tax.

The LVT has no influence on building.

If you draw a two-by-two matrix where the columns are property tax yes/no and the rows are LVT yes/no, you will find that the rows have no influence at all, and it's all about which column you are in.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by waveBidder on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:00PM (#37909498)
> Gentrification, which displaces renters (rents become too expensive for existing tenants so they need to leave the area), will start displacing some land owners as well

maybe this would encourage them to actually pay attention to the plight of their neighbors instead of the "fuck you, I've got mine" NIMBY attitudes they so regularly take.

Re:Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax la... by eru on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:16PM (#37909661)
Yes, gentrification replaces some existing tenants. But the new tenants might be renters as well?

> If you don't allow deferment of the tax, pensioners might have to move unwillingly (low income that may not cover the tax). Most proposals allow deferment for retirees until sale of the property, though, so it's kinda a non-issue.

Otherwise, banks can do that kind of deferral for you with something called a reverse mortgage.