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Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by lylejantzi3rd on Saturday October 14, 2023 @04:58PM (#37884213)
> if you can't tailor your CV to the job, and can't write half a page rationale

There's "can't" and there's "won't." Programmers in demand won't spend the time, which leaves you with programmers who are desperate enough for work to jump through your hoops (unless you're FAANG or a unicorn). You're effectively filtering your candidate pool down to people you don't want to hire. Round and round we go.

Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by e12e on Saturday October 14, 2023 @05:14PM (#37884332)
Sure. But isn't what both sides should be aiming for a no-bullshit dialog where company explain what they need help doing, applicant explains that they can, how they can help get that done?

At some point the candidate needs to invest some time on communication with the specific employer - why waste everyone's time synchronously in first first interview, when it's better for both to waste that time asynchronously?

Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by janalsncm on Saturday October 14, 2023 @07:28PM (#37885250)
Ok, in that case you don’t need a lengthy cover letter. The only thing it needs to say is “At my current company I did X. You need X to be done. Hire me and I will do it.” However very few job descriptions give the kind of info which would enable that.
Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by e12e on Saturday October 14, 2023 @09:41PM (#37886044)
Yes, IMNHO a short (but accurately targeted) cover letter is what serves both parties best.
Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by lylejantzi3rd on Saturday October 14, 2023 @08:02PM (#37885476)
You've missed the point completely. What you're talking about only applies to programmers who apply for the job you have listed. The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter when their other options don't have that requirement? They won't apply at all.

So, who applies to your open position? Programmers who don't have any other options and are desperate for a job. They probably won't pass your interview. You now have a sales funnel that is filtering out the candidates you want and only giving you the ones you don't want. Then you get to be yet another company that complains about how hard it is to find competent programmers.

The exception to all of the above is if you're one of the companies everybody wants to work at. Then you can require whatever you want and people will still apply.

Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by e12e on Saturday October 14, 2023 @09:48PM (#37886082)
> Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter

I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either?

Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by catlover76 on Saturday October 14, 2023 @10:44PM (#37886412)
> I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs?

If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes.

> Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either?

They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense.

It sounds like you want to filter only for candidates who may or may not be particularly competent, but who are somewhat obsequious, at least during the hiring process. Maybe that works for your business.

Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by e12e on Sunday October 15, 2023 @05:09AM (#37888211)
I think we're at least partially talking past each other (quite probably we also disagree). Let's revisit:

> The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter.

Ok. That sounds like they expect to be recuited - not needing to apply for a job?

Is there a small group of candidates that will read a job ad, be qualified, want the job enough to apply - but only willing to customize the email address they send their resume to?

Or are we talking about completely separate candidate pools here? Ones that read and respond to ads, and those that expect to be recruited?

> If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes.

> They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense

But it's not nonsense? It's a job application?

Or does "cover letter" strongly imply "fawning, vapid, nonsense" to you?

What is the alternative? Having the first interview as first contact certainly seems like a waste of time?

(Not to mention writing skills being essential for remote work - which I hope is an option for most software positions these days)

Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by catlover76 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @12:57PM (#37891386)
> Is there a small group of candidates that will read a job ad, be qualified, want the job enough to apply - but only willing to customize the email address they send their resume to?

I think basically yes.

You raise a good point, though, about people who are really good just always getting recruited. Based on my small sample size, such people do still apply to jobs at startups they find interesting. So their pipeline is thus a mix of cold apps and recruiter activity and referrals.

> But it's not nonsense? It's a job application?

No, it's nonsense. A "cover letter" is a terrible prompt to elicit any meaningful information about a candidate, and implies negative things about the company asking for one. Among them: that the company is perfectly willing to have the candidate waste their own time writing one, so this symmetry of investment and time-saving rationale doesn't seem too convincing, IMO.

I think if you want to assess writing skills, you should ask more focused questions, such as "What is the biggest thing you have built in x language", "What is your experience with y"

You will still filter out good candidates who do not want or do not have time to answer any such questions, but I think those questions are far more fair and probative of the kinds of qualitative skills you are looking for than "write me a thing to tell me how much you want this job"

Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by eadmund on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:31AM (#37899647)
> A "cover letter" is a terrible prompt to elicit any meaningful information about a candidate, and implies negative things about the company asking for one.

On the contrary, a cover letter is a powerful tool to elicit meaningful information about a candidate’s soft skills, in particular empathy (for the hiring manager) and communication, and refusal to provide one implies negative things about a candidate.

> I think if you want to assess writing skills, you should ask more focused questions, such as "What is the biggest thing you have built in x language", "What is your experience with y"

A good candidate does not need those prompts. Having read the job description, he has an idea of what the hiring manager wants, and he writes about it.

> "write me a thing to tell me how much you want this job"

That’s not a cover letter. I don’t care how much a candidate wants a job. To be honest, neediness is a turn off. I care how effective the candidate will be at the job, both technically and socially.

I feel that perhaps you and others think all a cover letter is, is ‘Company X is such a great place! I want to work at Company X so much! Please pick me!’ If so, then yeah, I 100% agree with you. That’s useless input to the hiring process. But that’s not what a cover letter is IMHO.

As mentioned elsewhere, I assert that a cover letter is the soft skills equivalent to the resumé. The resumé lists relevant skills, education/training and experience. Those are all good things, but they are in the nature of checking boxes. The cover letter is a soft-skills demonstration. It’s also an opportunity for a candidate who is borderline in one area to draw attention to the fact that he more than makes up for it in another.

Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by eadmund on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:22AM (#37899537)
The cover letter is a proxy for soft skills. I am pretty sure that I don’t want to hire a candidate who believes that soft skills are a waste of time. He might be brilliant, but he sounds terrible to supervise, work for or be supervised by.
Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by lylejantzi3rd on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:44AM (#37899824)
> The cover letter is a proxy for soft skills.

Not anymore. Not with ChatGPT. In any case, you have completely missed my point, right along with e12e.

Re:Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find p... by eadmund on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:31AM (#37900354)
> > The cover letter is a proxy for soft skills.

> Not anymore. Not with ChatGPT.

I don’t think so. I don’t care if a writer uses spell check, grammar check or ChatGPT: good cover letter is a good cover letter, regardless of what tools the writer used to help.

> In any case, you have completely missed my point, right along with e12e.

What was it, then? That the best candidates consider cover letters nonsense? I disagree: I am asserting that a candidate who considers cover letters nonsense is ipso facto not among the best.

Maybe this is related to a misunderstanding about cover letters? They’re not about ‘I love your company!’ or ‘please please hire me!’; they are about ‘here’s why I believe that my skills, education and prior experience suit me for this opportunity.’ The resumé is what; the cover letter is why. The resumé is facts; the cover letter is judgement.