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Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by robertk on Thursday November 27, 2008 @09:28AM (#378671)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin%27s_constant

But seriously, don't upvote this story, it is written by a fifth grader (or at least makes that its audience).

EDIT: In response to the comment below ("just because it's simplification doesn't make it inaccurate"):

Because it's not "simplification." It's--pardon--bullshit. Chaitin's constant has nothing to do with "randomness in mathematics."

Besides, number theory is certainly not "the foundation of pure mathematics." Gauss would say that in the 18th century ("Number theory is the Queen of the Sciences"), but obviously it's long been replaced by logic, model, and axiomatic set theory.

Here, I'll condense the article to one sentence:

In other words, the randomness of the digits of Omega imposes limits on what can be known from number theory--the most elementary of mathematical fields.

There. So what? There are limits on what can be known from anything in mathematics. Nothing to see here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantine_equations#Typical_q...

This is just saying that some of those five questions are answerable by Chaitin's constant for that particular huge Diophantine equation.

EDIT2: Disclaimer: I am a graduate student in mathematics.

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by randomwalker on Thursday November 27, 2008 @11:43PM (#379105)
A big part of the problem is that Chaitin is a shameless self-promoter. He is the Bruce Schneier of Algorithmic Complexity. Actually, no, Schneier is not nearly as bad. Let me quote from the highest voted Amazon review of his book:

"Let the author speak for himself. From page 7, "Gödel's 1931 work on incompleteness, Turing's 1936 work on uncomputability, and my own work on the role of information, randomness and complexity have shown increasingly emphatically that the role that Hilbert envisioned for formalism in mathematics is best served by computer programming languages[.]"

Imagine if a working composer wrote, "Bach's preludes and fugues, Beethoven's symphonies, and my own string quartets have shown increasingly emphatically..." This man's reputation in his declared field is nowhere near his apparent stature in his own mind. The ideas discussed in this book are worthy of late-night musings over a nice brandy, or maybe a Scientific American article, but only after extensive revision. They are not ready for publication in a monograph. "

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by jhancock on Friday November 28, 2008 @12:44AM (#379129)
I assume you weren't really picking on Schneier. He's a self-promotor in a pretty healthy sense. He has written much content on the human aspects of security useful to laymen. He does so without being arrogant or saying "I invented this". All in all, a good educator that doesn't talk down to his audience and can explain things so that his "grandmother could understand" (my favorite Einstein principle). He has interwoven this practice into his business, the beneficiary of his self-promotion, which seems to have done well for him.

I might even recommend Schneier as the poster-boy of healthy entrepreneurial self-promotion.

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by randomwalker on Friday November 28, 2008 @02:41AM (#379181)
No, didn't mean to pick on Schneier. He's a self promoter, but the analogy breaks down after that.
Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by neilc on Friday November 28, 2008 @09:59PM (#379808)
This man's reputation in his declared field is nowhere near his apparent stature in his own mind

Really? He is one of the coinventors of Kolmogorov complexity, and Kolmogorov complexity certainly does shed a lot of light on the relationship between information, randomness, and complexity. While he is clearly a big ego and a shameless self-promoter, I think it's also fair to say that he is among the foremost experts on K-complexity and related topics.

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by yters on Thursday November 27, 2008 @09:39AM (#378677)
What's wrong with a simplification if it's accurate? We can't all be geniuses, I know I'm not.

Here's Chaitin's layman's description of his theory:

http://plus.maths.org/issue37/features/omega/feat.pdf

His book about getting there:

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/math/pdf/0404/0404335v7.pdf

And the halting problem thrown in for good measure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem

BTW, if someone wants karma, I haven't submitted any of the other Chaitin links. The book, at least, would probably be worth something.

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by brl on Thursday November 27, 2008 @05:28PM (#378946)
Wow, thanks for posting those links! I read the first two chapters of the book and I must say that Chaitin is a brilliantly lucid and entertaining writer.

I am pretty much mathematically illiterate but I am still enjoying his book immensely.

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by yters on Friday November 28, 2008 @08:09PM (#379738)
Here is another book of his I found:

http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~chaitin/unknowable/ch6.html

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by yters on Thursday November 27, 2008 @09:52AM (#378683)
It's random according to Chaitin's usage of the term. Anyways, I changed the title so that section is in quotes, showing it is what Chaitin thinks, not what is necessarily accepted by all mathematicians.

EDIT

The definition of randomness he uses is the same as Kolmogorov's, something that has a description as complex (containing as many bits) as itself. So, when Chaitin says math is random, he means the basic truths of math cannot be reduced to a simpler system. Godel said such truths exist, Chaitin says they permeate all of math.

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by robertk on Thursday November 27, 2008 @09:56AM (#378687)
So a Theory of Everything would be a set of axioms from which we can deduce all mathematical truths and derive all mathematical objects.

A Theory of Everything was meant in the physical sense. One that fully describes the nature of spacetime (or what appears to us as spacetime).

Obviously the above can't be true. You can't have a consistent and complete theory, come on, that's Godel already.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Chaitin might have a clue to what he's talking about, but obviously the author has nought. I rest my case for people to stop upmodding the article. You may not know it's sensationalist and innacurate, so I'm just letting you know.

I thought we wanted to avoid articles like this on HN?

EDIT: Parent edited his comment.

EDIT2: What basic truths? The only "basic truth" is first-order predicate logic. After that you assume some axioms (ZFC), and then it's not basic anymore. If you had used different axioms, you'd end up with a different mathematics, .e.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann%E2%80%93Bernays%E2%...

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by yters on Thursday November 27, 2008 @10:06AM (#378692)
Hey, no need for downvoting. robertk knows more about what he's talking about than I do.

Anyways, here's what I gather the article is saying:

Pysics depends on maths. Godel's incompleteness theorem (GIT) doesn't necessarily impact physics because physics can just use the untouched part of maths. However, Chaitin says his Omega number impacts all of maths with the same kind of consequence as GIT. Therefore, physics and the TEO is in trouble no matter what part of maths it uses.

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by robertk on Thursday November 27, 2008 @10:12AM (#378697)
I didn't realize the goal was to talk about physics. Consider the first sentence:

He shattered mathematics with a single number. And that was just for starters, says Marcus Chown.

Certainly reading about uncomputable numbers like Chaitin's constant is interesting reading, but my case is that this article is not the right start.

Anyways, foundations and information theory isn't my area of research, so I'll leave it at that.

Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by yters on Thursday November 27, 2008 @10:18AM (#378701)
You're right, physics is just part of it, and some of the other links we've posted will give people a better grounding in his theory. Anyways, I appreciate your input, criticism is always welcome, especially from grad students. Best of luck on your studies:)
Re:The Omega Man: "Math is built on randomness" by yters on Thursday November 27, 2008 @10:01AM (#378690)
Sorry, I should have waited for your response.

Anyways, they are saying different things from what I can tell, as mentioned in the edit. So, I'm not seeing the case that the article is innacurate.