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Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by londons_explore on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:36AM (#37779139)
> Asking people to have less, experience less, and do less isn’t an argument that can ever win.

Asking people to eat less might never win... But when there is a famine, people have no choice but to eat less. It's not that there is no food available in a famine - it's just that prices go sky high.

Tomorrow the government could shut down the oil wells and say "nobody may emit any CO2 unless they pay $1000/ton of CO2 emitted.".

The population may revolt, like they do during famines. But with those oil wells blocked up, they probably wouldn't get what they were looking for.

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by spenczar5 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:46AM (#37779272)
- which government?

- did I emit a ton of CO2 when I cut down a tree?

- what happens to the cost of medical plastics, etc? Did you just kill millions in poor countries because the cost of care went up so much?

This stuff is hard. Pretending it is simple stops us from working on the hard parts.

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by mrguyorama on Thursday October 05, 2023 @01:38PM (#37781518)
>what happens to the cost of medical plastics,

Plastic production is an insanely small part of oil and gas usage, 4%. Anyone bringing up plastic as a reason to not stop using oil isn't being intellectually honest. We could literally decimate the oil industry and still produce way more oil than the plastic industry needs. It's just not a concern.

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by spenczar5 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:39PM (#37783279)
The proposal was to crank up the price of oil directly. You couldnt price-curve your way past a $1,000 per CO2 ton tax. While plastic does not drive oil production, it is definitely the case that oil prices determine plastic production costs.

Recycling can absorb much of that, but medical plastics cannot be made through recycling today.

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by londons_explore on Thursday October 05, 2023 @05:35PM (#37784584)
$1000/ton is $1/kg. Most medical plastic items are tens of grams - so 1 cent.

Considering the price of medical devices in the US, there is certainly room for a few extra cents.

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by spenczar5 on Friday October 06, 2023 @09:36AM (#37790603)
You are taxing co2, not oil. A barrel of oil is about 400kg of carbon. That makes the price go up by at least $400 per barrel. It’s at about $80 right now. So the cost of materials for petroleum prodycts would go up by something like 6x.

In the US, this cost will get absorbed. But if you are in subsaharan Africa, 6x more expensive IV tubes and syringes is extremely consequential.

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by nemo44x on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:47AM (#37779289)
So a government that violently suppresses dissent and only wealthy people can emit CO2? Yeah, sounds great! I don’t think eco-fascism is going to get broad support…
Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by vixen99 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @12:12PM (#37780463)
Not sure about that. Announce a climate emergency with huge implications I don't need to detail and you might get away with anything irrespective of support.
Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by nradov on Thursday October 05, 2023 @12:26PM (#37780632)
A government foolish enough to abuse emergency powers that way would be voted out in the next election.
Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by dragonwriter on Thursday October 05, 2023 @12:28PM (#37780651)
Abuse emergency powers sufficiently, and there is no next election, at least not on terms where it is possible for you to lose.
Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by flagrant_taco on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:54AM (#37779392)
It doesn't necessarily have to be done through further government intervention. Simply removing government protections and subsidies for industry would go a long way.

That's definitely not a complete solution (if one exists), but that could be implemented over night if we wanted to do it.

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by Roark66 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @11:13AM (#37779650)
>Tomorrow the government could shut down the oil wells and say "nobody may emit any CO2 unless they pay $1000/ton of CO2 emitted.".

And it would not change anything at planet scale, because on the other side of the world China is going to "pick up any slack" of CO2 generation we may not do.

It shouldn't stop us from trying to increase efficiency, but panic and insane ideas of the sort of "no one can emit a ton of CO2 without paying $1k" are not the way to improve things. The biggest fight in the world today is not for "the climate", but for the freedom to live in a non-autocratic country. We would have to win the second to have the slightest shot at cooperating well enough to have a shot at mitigating the first for those of us in places that will be hit the worst.

Do you think a communist-by-name party of China (or Russian mafia-state) gives a damn about the climate and how it affects people in places like subsaharan Africa, Bangladesh etc? Not in the slightest, but they'll gladly use every bit of it to promote panic and industry killing policies in places like the US, EU while pretending to "be green". If we win the fight not to be ruled by corrupt dictators we can have a shot of improving the lives of people who will suffer due to climate change.

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by dragonwriter on Thursday October 05, 2023 @11:30AM (#37779901)
> And it would not change anything at planet scale, because on the other side of the world China is going to "pick up any slack" of CO2 generation we may not do.

Even if that was true in the short term (and reducing global supply by shutting down oil wells makes ir unlikely) the relative incentive for alternatives created here would lead to global improvements over the medium and longer term.

(That said, the time to apply solutions with medium-to-longer term payoff was 50 years ago.)

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by chimprich on Thursday October 05, 2023 @12:06PM (#37780402)
> And it would not change anything at planet scale, because on the other side of the world China is going to "pick up any slack" of CO2 generation we may not do.

We're still far better off decarbonising because (rest of the world CO2 + China CO2) > China CO2.

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by NoGravitas on Thursday October 05, 2023 @02:40PM (#37782347)
China's per capita carbon emissions are half those of the US (8 metric tons vs 16 metric tons, 2018 figures). Mote, beam, etc.
Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by Roark66 on Friday October 06, 2023 @01:28AM (#37787364)
And you believe any numbers that come out of China? If they are reporting half they are probably emitting 3x in reality. China has been approving a new coal fired power plant every 2 weeks for years.
Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by xorcist on Thursday October 05, 2023 @01:04PM (#37781135)
I may have posted this several times before, but China is not the problem. We know how to deal with that: international trade agreements.

The problem is that it requires the US to be on board with it. Each one alone couldn't, but the EU and US together would have the economic force required to solve this problem, if they acted with decisiveness.

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by nemo44x on Thursday October 05, 2023 @04:30PM (#37783912)
What does the USA get out of it? The USA is the #1 producer of oil and the commodity is traded in her currency globally. This makes the USA energy independent and keeps demand for dollars extremely high.

The EU on the other hand has virtually no ability to produce oil and gas and is dependent on outside suppliers. So of course they have a lot of incentive to move off of it and that’s much easier if everyone else does too.

American hegemony is at stake if oil demand is dramatically reduced quickly. Where as the EU stands to gain influence. So again, why would the USA weaken herself to the benefit of the EU?

Re:September was the most anomalously hot month ever by xorcist on Monday October 09, 2023 @07:54AM (#37819448)
There's no way to know if this question is sarcasm or not; but it's a good one. The EU is not uniform in this. Some countries face the same question, the UK and Norway comes to mind. Our history era is pretty much defined by oil, both directly and indirectly, but we don't know how long this era is.

Perhaps it would make economic sense to squeeze the market to the last drop? This is also why peak oil is an important concept. The price will certainly increase over the long term and this is a tempting opportunity.

However, this is also how empires fall. There will be technological change, and it will decrease our dependency on oil, not increase it. The economic impetus for this change is clear. Companies resisting change will be irrelevant in the future and the same is true for whole countries. Economies which isn't dominated by oil will be the first to change and master the next economic era. Countries like Russia are not likely to keep up with the technological change, they are much too invested in the old system.

So the answer is that given a long enough outlook, economies gain from this transformation. The US specifically also should have every incentive to keep trade with China under control, given that geopolitical situation. Aligning with the EU would be a strategical move against China, while keeping the European trade partners close. It's a move that would make both economic and political sense.

That's separate from the moral reasons. We know what carbon dioxide concentration in the atmosphere leads to. Over geological time scales it is abundantly clear. We may not want that for our children, but that's unfortunately too late to change now. Economic and political reasons are what remains.