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Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by softwaredoug on Monday September 25, 2023 @12:56PM (#37646968)
Agreed... We are seeing dozens of database companies turn their OSS into basically proprietary shared code licenses. And we seem to still pretend its "open source"

Collaboration, across companies, not ownership by one company is the root of open source. To do that you need some kind of governance model. Essentially "ownership" by one company is conducive to quick progress on specific problems, but not collaboration.

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by AceJohnny2 on Monday September 25, 2023 @01:29PM (#37647532)
To put it another way: many startups today have adopted the "Open Core" business model, and it's really more about marketing than actual open-source.

"Open Core" means they open-source the core of their product portfolio, core which some enterprising people may use to develop applications on, but for others will really need the buy into the rest of the portfolio to get the best use out of.

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by AceJohnny2 on Monday September 25, 2023 @01:30PM (#37647541)
I can't really fault companies for using this model. Development is expensive, and business models around open-source are hard. I mean, just look at what Red Hat ends up doing to fend off copycats. Getting people to try your product and also rely on it is a tricky proposition.
Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by softwaredoug on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:20PM (#37649146)
I don't fault them either. In fact I'm a big fan of many of those companies.

I think the fault is with the consumers. Many companies consume but do not participate in open source. All the incentives are there for companies to become vendors rather than participants (stewards?) of an open source project.

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by soenkeliebau on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:58PM (#37649712)
I think we are heading towards a bit of a shift in this regard. With the CRA in Europe and similar legislation in the States it will become more important to have "enterprise" services surrounding open source software. This is for example support, but also vulnerability assessment and similar things.

I may be mistaken here, but I think we will see pure functionality become less important to enterprise customers, which might (maybe not, but one can hope) proper open source business models more viable again.

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by falalalala on Monday September 25, 2023 @06:52PM (#37651852)
What does Debian do?
Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by AceJohnny2 on Monday September 25, 2023 @06:53PM (#37651867)
Debian is not a commercial entity. It's a volunteer organization.

In fact there's been quite a bit of vitriol about Canonical profiting from all the hard work from Debian volunteers and not shared as much of that value back to Debian as was felt was deserved.

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by worthless-trash on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @12:24AM (#37654344)
I've always wondered about that, I feel like ubuntu sometimes doesn't contribute fixes upstream. When I hear 'it works on ubuntu but not on distro X', it makes me wonder why ubuntu devs didnt post the fixes upstream.

* I do realise that different release timings can fudge with the timing, but when fedora is building upstream versions and I hear it, its a bit.. disheartening.

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by pxc on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:43PM (#37664845)
> When I hear 'it works on ubuntu but not on distro X', it makes me wonder why ubuntu devs didnt post the fixes upstream.

I think this usually doesn't really have to do with Canonical at all, but with third party developers only testing against and building for Ubuntu.

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by worthless-trash on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:45PM (#37669784)
Possibly, the examples I chased down are usually patches to the gnome userspace stack.
Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by pclmulqdq on Monday September 25, 2023 @01:22PM (#37647424)
The flipside is that companies don't seem all that interested in this sort of collaboration, though, nor should they be. It doesn't really make sense for a company that believes its edge is its technology to both give up the secret sauce and accept the dillution of that edge that comes from taking code from outside contributors. The modern version of "open source" is a natural evolution of the concept when this is how companies think.
Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by znpy on Monday September 25, 2023 @01:27PM (#37647504)
> We are seeing dozens of database companies turn their OSS into basically proprietary shared code licenses. And we seem to still pretend its "open source"

"open source" here is working as intended. the thing is, "open source" is misunderstood by many (most?) individuals.

"open source" was explicitly created by Eric Raymond and others in the late 90ies because the Free Software movement was seen as too extremistic by companies still deeply rooted into the proprietary model.

"open source" is a nice way out, in order to be able to look cool, while not actually playing it cool.

I said it in many posts and i'll say it again: if you're require to give up copyright on your contributions and the license isn't free-software... then it's just a matter of time before a company turns your code into proprietary intellectual property.

people that do not agree are simply delusional (or okay with that).

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by ptx on Monday September 25, 2023 @01:47PM (#37647790)
Well, sort of. Open source was just a different name to describe free software, with the purpose of emphasizing the collaboration benefits this gives the business rather than the freedom it gives users. But this "business source" stuff is a different thing which is not open source at all.
Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by mixmastamyk on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:06PM (#37648091)
Not just different names but different licenses.
Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by ptx on Monday September 25, 2023 @02:37PM (#37648543)
No, not really. The first three criteria of the Open Source Definition [0] are essentially freedoms 1–3 of the Free Software Definition [1] and freedom 0 more or less maps to criteria 5 and 6.

The mainstream FOSS licenses (GPL, BSD, Apache2, etc.) are all included both in the official list of open source licenses [2] and the official list of free software licenses [3], so these licenses are both open source licenses and free software licenses. These lists might have some minor differences, but they share a substantial subset and the definitions broadly speaking define the same thing.

[0] https://opensource.org/osd/

[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

[2] https://opensource.org/licenses/

[3] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by toyg on Monday September 25, 2023 @04:06PM (#37649832)
You can't interpret things like these out of context.

OSS as a term was created at a time when free software, as defined by GNU, was effectively becoming the de-facto standard for collaborative efforts on the internet. Yes, MIT and BSD were around (barely, in the BSD case), but the rising star was Linux and Linux (and the software built on it - GTK, gimp, etc) was GPL.

The industry needed a way to get on the action without touching the "communist" GPL, and that's why ESR's definition of "Open Source" was endorsed. Obviously they coopted all the existing bits they were ok with (i.e. all the ones that did not impose any extra burden on companies), that's why the definitions overlap substantially; but they are not the same thing. If they were, there would not have been any need to create a new definition for it.

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by znpy on Monday September 25, 2023 @05:41PM (#37651094)
> The industry needed a way to get on the action without touching the "communist" GPL, and that's why ESR's definition of "Open Source" was endorsed.

which against, doesn't really makes sense.

Stallman has repeated over and over that the Free Software movement is not about communism (despite what communist people like to say).

Most likely, the industry needed a way to get people to submit improvements and patches (essentially doing Development, QA and support) for free without having to give a way the right to sell proprietary services.

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by ptx on Monday September 25, 2023 @06:44PM (#37651762)
Out of context? I provided plenty of context if you care to follow the links I posted.

The distinction between copyleft and non-copyleft licenses, e.g. GPL and BSD, is different from the distinction between open source and free software, which is mainly ideological. The GPL is a copyleft license but also an open source license, as you can see on the OSI website.

For maximum context, here is a quote from the board meeting minutes [0] where the OSI approved the Free Software Foundation's copyleft GPL license as an open source license in accordance with the Open Source Definition: "The Open Source Initiative is pleased to announce that, based on broad review and acceptance by both the Board and the community, it has confirmed that GPLv3 and LGPLv3 both conform to the Open Source Definition."

[0] https://opensource.org/meeting-minutes/minutes20070905/

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by toyg on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:18AM (#37655621)
Yes, because OSS was meant to be a superset of projects including Free Software, so that stuff that did not fit the Free Software definition could still be considered ideologically acceptable. Do I really have to draw a diagram...?
Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by ptx on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @07:35AM (#37657770)
Such as what stuff? Draw a diagram if you need to, but a few examples of these nefarious non-free licenses promoted by the OSI would be sufficient.
Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by toyg on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:18AM (#37658867)
Crap like Sun's CDDL and MPL were endorsed by OSI although they were developed explicitly in opposition to the GPL. Yeah, they might be nominally "free", but their aim was fairly nefarious at the time. OSI endorses all sorts of licenses that are free in name only.
Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by ptx on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:47AM (#37659242)
OK, so you're saying that Open Source is "not the same thing" as Free Software and there was a "need to create a new definition for it" to include "stuff that did not fit the Free Software definition". You give the CDDL and the MPL as examples of such stuff.

But if you take a look at the Free Software Foundation's list [0] of Free Software licenses, you will see that it lists both the CDDL and the MPL as Free Software according to the Free Software Definition.

So why should a new definition have been needed to allow these licenses when they are already allowed by the old definition? Maybe you could supply some of that context you were talking about?

[0] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by toyg on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:14AM (#37659658)
CDDL and MPL were defined as "free" only after a lengthy debate, and remain incompatible with the GPL - which, at the time, was widely considered the gold standard of free licenses. Without OSI as an ideological cover, they would have been ostracized even harder than they were.

> So why should a new definition have been needed to allow these licenses when they are already allowed by the old definition?

Maybe you should ask the founders of OSI? If their work was fundamentally pointless, why did they do it? Because it wasn't pointless, it was seen as necessary to be able to say "we are Good Guys, but not like them dirty GPL hippies".

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by znpy on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:17PM (#37649095)
In this contexts license is everything, I can’t understand why people won’t get this in their head.
Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by znpy on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:15PM (#37649070)
What you’re saying doesn’t make sense at all.

If that was true that would have been just some marketing campaign.

There would have been no need to divert the attention from the free software foundation.

Re:It's time to let go, Apache Software Foundation by ptx on Monday September 25, 2023 @03:58PM (#37649704)
Yes, basically a marketing campaign. Wikipedia [0] says (in part): "Netscape's act prompted Raymond and others to look into how to bring free software principles and benefits to the commercial-software industry. They concluded that FSF's social activism was not appealing to companies like Netscape, and looked for a way to rebrand the free software movement to emphasize the business potential of the sharing of source code."

In other words, we had a thing that would benefit everyone in many ways, but some people didn't like the marketing message of "users deserve these rights!" so a complementary marketing message of "cheaper and higher-quality software through collaboration!" was needed to reach that group.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_free_and_open-sourc...