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Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by swasheck on Friday September 22, 2023 @02:49PM (#37616068)
bret devereaux is a great follow on twitter, uh ... X, as well. his thoughts on the ukraine/russia conflict are very interesting to me
Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by pphysch on Friday September 22, 2023 @06:07PM (#37618409)
I was curious, so I looked. He's out there boosting Timothy Snyder. Oof. I'll pass.
Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by lying4fun on Friday September 22, 2023 @06:53PM (#37618837)
I’m not familiar with Timothy’s persona/work, why did that repel you?
Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by _whiteCaps_ on Friday September 22, 2023 @06:56PM (#37618858)
Can you explain further? I see on his Wikipedia page:

"Since Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine, and the bombing of its energy infrastructure, Snyder has spoken and written widely on the history of Ukraine and its worldwide importance for democracy, on the disastrous geopolitical effects of the invasion, and on the need for other nations and individuals to stand for the protection of territory belonging to that state."

which seems reasonable to me.

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by pphysch on Friday September 22, 2023 @07:27PM (#37619099)
Snyder leans heavily on moralizing and evidence-free psychoanalysis to explain current events.

It's far too much "trust me I'm an established intellectual" and far too little evidence-based reasoning for me. To each their own.

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by ethbr1 on Friday September 22, 2023 @06:16PM (#37618473)
His modern stuff is more... eh.

E.g. I thought there were a lot of flaws in his early-war "NATO can't supply X, because Russia will threaten nukes" positions, as he completed ignored the obvious opposite "Russia can't escalate, because NATO will threaten nukes"

110% love his Roman-period deep dives though.

There's probably a smarter quip than me out there to the effect of "Great people share their brilliance on many matters, while the greatest speak on but a few."

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by bobthepanda on Friday September 22, 2023 @06:24PM (#37618554)
To be fair, it took a while for people to figure out how much MAD was still in play, since before the invasion most punditry thought Russia was bluffing and would never try to invade Kyiv with tanks, so what else had they gotten wrong?
Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by ethbr1 on Friday September 22, 2023 @06:33PM (#37618648)
If a shoe fits on one foot, it fits on the other too. Aka the "M".

The "Russia is a madman, but we're not" is... difficult to square logically and historically.

Beneath all the political and PR charades, during the Cold War the Soviet Union was generally as terrified of the West pre-emptively nuking them as vice versus.

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by galaxyofdoom on Friday September 22, 2023 @08:35PM (#37619546)
Presently, it is not during the Cold War. The idea that Putin is terrified of nuclear annihilation is ridiculous.
Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by eru on Saturday September 23, 2023 @04:57AM (#37621675)
Just speculating: I'm fairly sure Putin knows that the West won't do any nuclear first strikes.

But if he tries anything even remotely nuclear, the West would just annihilate his empire. And the West wouldn't even need to go nuclear.

(Especially if the West got serious and opened the money floodgates. I suspect even in the current state of the Ukrainian war, if they offered any Russian defector 100k USD and a new identity under a EU passport, they could meld away the Russian army fairly quickly.)

Russia would most likely also lose the tacit support of India and China, if the bear were to use nukes first.

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by bluGill on Monday September 25, 2023 @12:20PM (#37646373)
Those who had access to classified information did not think Russia was bluffing. They are acting like they think MAD is still in play - while they are not talking and may have other reasons for acting like this, I think it is safe to assume MAD is in play.
Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by jltsiren on Friday September 22, 2023 @09:02PM (#37619706)
Wasn't the standard model for how a nuclear war would start basically "if you escalate, the reasonable expectation is that the other side will escalate as well"? If you escalate despite the nukes on the other side, it would be risky to assume that the other side is unwilling to do the same.

If you escalate, you signal your intent to start a nuclear war if the other side does not back down. But if you are willing to do that, you should assume that the other side is equally willing. Otherwise why would they waste money on nuclear weapons if they are not prepared to use them?

Much of the cold war was basically figuring out what you are allowed to do in a proxy war, so that the other side still interprets your actions as a legitimate proxy war rather than escalation.

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by eru on Saturday September 23, 2023 @04:52AM (#37621660)
While the Cold War was still raging, Thomas Schelling, of 'Strategy of Conflict' fame, pointed out that while the war stays cold thanks to the 'mutually assured destruction' consensus, it would be an optimal strategy in terms of bang-for-your-buck to pretend to have many more nukes than you actually have.

Concretely, since no one ever wants to call your bluff and test your nuclear arsenal, it's natural to expect that unless there are strong countervailing pressures, one can expect that many nukes will be badly maintained and turn out to be duds.

Given what we learned about the state of the Russian armed forces since February 2022, it would not surprise me, if Russia barely had any working nuclear capabilities in practice.

(However they would still be dangerous enough. Even a nuclear payload that doesn't explode properly would still be a very dirty bomb.)

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by xg15 on Saturday September 23, 2023 @06:31AM (#37622018)
Without wanting to do any speculation how the current situation will ever end, but I always assumed that the first stage of nuclear escalation would be nuclear tests - to exactly call this kind of bluff of the other side and to signal that the own side would be actually capable of performing a nuclear strike.

From what I know this was also what happened in the cold war - the nuclear threat back then was a lot more "palpable" than it is now, possibly because both blocks were already constantly launching nukes - they just weren't launching nukes at each other:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_nuclear_weapons_s...

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by eru on Saturday September 23, 2023 @09:53PM (#37629440)
Yes. Though the test would only tell you that the other side has at least a few working nukes, not the proportion of working nukes.

(If a side could credibly commit to testing an unbiased (pseudo-) random sample of nukes, they would be able to convince the world that a large portion of their nukes work.

But I am not sure how you would do that without revealing all of your nukes?)

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by bluGill on Monday September 25, 2023 @12:18PM (#37646345)
Spies exist. You never are sure how many the enemy has or what they are leaking - even if you do learn, that is a snapshot in time: tomorrow they may get another spy and then you are back. As such you are risking the enemy learns the nukes don't exist and then the whole thing fails.

We now have treaties to inspect each other's nukes. So unlike other things we have a good idea of what how many exist and are working - or at least a floor on the number (that is either side may decide to risk the treaty with secret nukes elsewhere. Between the potential of the program being discovered and the costs I doubt it, but I must allow this for completeness). As such it is generally believed that Russia's Nukes are in mostly in good shape - those who should know all seem to be acting like they are.

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by eru on Monday September 25, 2023 @08:40PM (#37652825)
Official inspections can peek and poke the nukes a bit. But they can't really tell exactly how good the maintenance is. Similarly for a spy.

You are right that wholly non-existent nukes would be harder to fake. But covering up bad maintenance isn't quite so hard.

In your point's favour: Looking at the Russian military budget, they do seem to spend a lot on those nukes. Of course, funds could still be siphoned off. But having a big budget is at least necessary, even if not sufficient.

Re:How to Roman Republic, Part IV: The Senate by ethbr1 on Saturday September 23, 2023 @09:11AM (#37622933)
Inasmuch as I've read, and that's mostly 60s/70s stuff, most stable escalation theory is based on messaging and red lines.

I.e. identifying a future possibility and loudly proclaiming that if (and only if) it happens, then this nuclear action will take place (and stop there)

Essentially, trying to avoid surprise and uncertainty by tying specific actions to reactions, with the hope of avoiding runaway escalation-begats-escalation scenarios.

Which is notably the opposite of what Russia has been doing, which is more along the lines of "If the West pushes us too far... they're in for it", which is more the kind of bluff you'd make if you never intended to actually escalate (because you create the fear without establishing any requirements to escalate on yourself).