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Re:Intermediate sci knowledge associated with overconfidence... by dekhn on Thursday September 14, 2023 @03:06PM (#37513337)
23&Me failed in drug development because they started from a mistaken premise- that the data they collected (very specifically, genotype arrays) would produce data that was correlated with human health closely enough to identify targets (proteins or pathways to disrupt/modify). They have a huge genetics dataset, they don't have a huge genomics dataset, and the underlying relationship between the genome and phenotypes (especially complex disease phenotypes) is a highly nonlinear function.

Environment is important but we could still have huge improvements in medical care using genomics. It's easy to obtain and still has a very strong relationship to disease, and is a problem best solved by deep learning. I've watched people tilt against this windmill for 25+ years and it's kind of funny just how bad our labelling of diseases is.

Re:Intermediate sci knowledge associated with overconfidence... by biomcgary on Thursday September 14, 2023 @03:17PM (#37513484)
Excellent point. I work at a biotech startup where one major focus is "how do we fix the disease labels?". I call it the pyrite problem (your gold standard data contains fools gold), but it is known more prosaically as the mislabeling problem.
Re:Intermediate sci knowledge associated with overconfidence... by dahinds on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:08PM (#37516511)
This is an inaccurate view of what 23andMe is doing.

First we did not "fail" in drug development, our collaboration with GSK yielded substantially more programs than we had anticipated when we started. The verdict on whether the strategy is successful or not will not be clear for another 5-10 years because being better at picking targets doesn't shorten the timeline for bringing a drug to market, it mostly means that you should have a modestly higher proportion of programs that end up being successful.

Second we did not start with a premise that we could or needed to do a great job of predicting disease from genetics alone, that is not required to identify good targets. You're correct we don't have huge genomics datasets, we largely use the same genomics datasets others use. Identifying targets with genetics in the simplest sense requires using genetics to identify an association at a genomic location, and then using genomics for functional interpretation of that association. And having the largest database of genetic associations enables the first step of that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the underlying relationship between the genome and phenotypes... is a highly nonlinear function". Simple additive models account for most of the heritability of complex phenotypes.

Re:Intermediate sci knowledge associated with overconfidence... by dekhn on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:31PM (#37516658)
The only thing 23&Me has done really well in stat gen is IBD (which IIRC you worked on).

I was a team from Google that evaluated 23&Me's data and technology many years ago for a business deal. We already talked about this with Anne and she confirmed what I said above. It might have been before you were hired- but I'm pretty sure we talked about building a variant store and a transpose service? I stand by my statements (note: I work at a competitor of GSK and I know all about these deals). It's not correct that being better at picking targets doesn't shorten the timeline, either- at least in the opinion of the scientists at my company.

Additive models don't really account for most of the heritability of complex phenotypes. They're what have worked best and been published so far. Complex phenotypes are nonlinear because the generative processes in biology have feedback, homeostasis, enormous numbers of individual elements... etc...

By the way, does 23&Me still put tongue-twisting as a heritable trait on its reports? https://blog.23andme.com/articles/tackling-tongue-curling-th... It's not.

Re:Intermediate sci knowledge associated with overconfidence... by dahinds on Thursday September 14, 2023 @10:11PM (#37517400)
I did not work on IBD but have been doing stat gen at 23andMe for 13 years. I'd say that anything you evaluated many years ago is pretty irrelevant today as the 23andMe database (and our research effort) didn't reach an interesting size until maybe 2016 and has grown rapidly since then. Our research group has >100 peer reviewed publications, I think some of them are decent, and that's just what we publish. Most of those are genome-wide association studies so a lot might hinge on whether you find those interesting/valuable. I would not say these are methodologically innovative, but I think we do them well.

You may be correct that better targets are also be faster to market. We would also hope so: better targets might be more straightforward to validate in the lab and may enable smaller trial sizes, for instance. Timelines are still long and this doesn't alter my statement that the success or failure of our target selection strategy won't be known for some years.

Do you have any evidence for additivity not accounting for most heritability? I'll give one cite (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2265475/). The fact that biology is very complex and non-linear is not inconsistent with most genetic effects being small and approximately additive.

We have never had a trait report on tongue curl, the 15-year-old blog post you linked to says it isn't a Mendelian trait, so I'm not sure where you were going with that. I can tell you that it is somewhat heritable but complex.