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Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by btreecat on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:11AM (#37495164)
That's just begging to be an actual database.

Imagine if you said everything with SQLite instead of Excel, and all of a sudden your just talking about structured config in a database. Not new, not crazy, and generally a decent practice.

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by dagw on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:18AM (#37495219)
The big difference is that every Windows computer (in a professional environment) comes with a very nice GUI tool for easily editing Excel files. A tool that basically everybody know how to use. The same cannot be said for SQLite.

SQLite is great for storing application state and config options set from within the app, but it is a pretty terrible format for end users to edit.

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by johannes1234321 on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @10:01AM (#37496885)
While I'm not sure I'd be happy about "end users" to edit the Excel files as config. Somehow they get the cells mixed up and you get utter mess. And then excel confuses some value for a date and stores some other mess ...

For a somewhat trained audience however it can be quite interesting for some specific problem domain ...

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by eternityforest on Thursday September 14, 2023 @01:04AM (#37505176)
Why doesn't Microsoft just add SQLite to Excel, so your formulas can query it?
Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by btreecat on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:04AM (#37507807)
Because how else would they push MS Access?
Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by btreecat on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:07AM (#37507826)
>SQLite is great for storing application state and config options set from within the app, but it is a pretty terrible format for end users to edit.

I think you are conflating the file with the workflow. A proper UI is the solution to making something not "terrible for end users to edit".

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by harperlee on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:22AM (#37495251)
Well, that's a complete apples-to-oranges proposal with completely different requirements.

With the original solution, you have an autocontained file that virtually any user knows how to edit, structure, expand, version, email, compare, discuss...

The level of user knowledge that you need for a similar solution based on a standalone SQLite file that you can version is another different world, e.g. to relate two values you would need to perhaps create a view or a trigger. And even with the most knowledgeable user you would still lack functionality such as simply pasting an image as a means of documentation and be able to see it, or WYSIWYG colors.

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by sofixa on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @08:20AM (#37495745)
> version, compare

Gonna have to disagree with you here. Very few people know how to version, compare, let alone if there are multiple collaborators, Excel files. Is there even a decent way of doing that outside of Excel Online / Google Sheets?

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by harperlee on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @02:42PM (#37500106)
Well I've seen a great deal of people comparing two Excels by quickly alt-tabbing, and doing Sheet1!A1=Sheet2!A1 comparisons in a third sheet, and dragging the formula.

Yes, that's horrible. But millions of people can autonomously resort to this, and they would be incapable of doing anything with a SQLite file.

Same with version control: you just add _v17_20230909_final to the name. Yes, it's horrible. Yes, it's buggy. But yes, it also runs the world.

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by btreecat on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:03AM (#37507793)
>But millions of people can autonomously resort to this, and they would be incapable of doing anything with a SQLite file.

Are you trying to suggest that either you can't do that with sqlite, or that people didn't require training to do this in Excel?

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by harperlee on Friday September 15, 2023 @03:19AM (#37519628)
harperlee: open list of affordances that an average user comfortably identifies with an Excel file, not really with sqlite

sofixa: version and comparison is not really supported in Excel

harperlee: agree that software support is not there, but in practice average user knows how to do it and is quite comfortable doing it in Excel

btreecat: sqlite also has filenames and you can learn how to use it

harperlee: agree on the filename, Excel files and sqlite files are externally, opaquely versionable in the same way. the point about people learning is moot though, average user already knows Excel because they were forced to in the past, but does not have the time to learn new things.

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by btreecat on Thursday September 14, 2023 @08:02AM (#37507774)
Fundamentally they need a tabular data store. Most everything else is a nice to have/usability point.

SQLite is also an auto contained file. There are similar tabular GUI tools that could let you interact with sqlite using a similar workflow. Users knowing that thing is not inherent, they had to be trained on it, and they can be retrained as they will be for other workflows and business tools.

Remember, you still need an external app (Excel) to open it's files, the files themselves are just data, exactly like sqlite. So you could just make an excel plugin to interface with SQLite.

SQLite is as version-able as an excel file, as in not very with standard tools.

Why are you pasting images into excel? Doesn't matter, sqlite handles that fine actually. https://www.sqlite.org/fasterthanfs.html

The main argument against sqlite is that you would need to build an interface or figure out how to train folks on existing tools. That's not a huge argument against it in my experience, it's a strong social/political one in many orgs but rarely a technical issue.

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by harperlee on Friday September 15, 2023 @03:26AM (#37519691)
> The main argument against sqlite is that you would need to build an interface or figure out how to train folks on existing tools. That's not a huge argument against it in my experience, it's a strong social/political one in many orgs but rarely a technical issue.

The design of a solution needs to look into way more requirements than just the technical ones, time and money being 2 big ones. I think most of the HN readers would agree that you could end up building an interface with most of the Excel functionality, even more perhaps, on top of sqlite, and have your particular group of users trained on it.

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by michaelbuckbee on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:16AM (#37495205)
Now I just want a spreadsheet style front end to SQLite and I'm nerd sniped into trying to figure out how to do formulas (triggers I suppose).
Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by speed_spread on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @07:55AM (#37495521)
Congratulations, you're about to reinvent MS Access / DBase / FoxPro... 30 years later.
Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by michaelbuckbee on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @08:22AM (#37495775)
That's an excellent point.
Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by speed_spread on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @08:40AM (#37495958)
I'm sorry for the initial sarcasm, it would actually be pretty cool to have those type of apps back. With everything going web-first nowadays, you could take inspiration from SQLite's own SCM, Fossil, that can run both as a CLI or a Web server.
Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by eternityforest on Thursday September 14, 2023 @01:38AM (#37505381)
I've been thinking it would be cool to build something like this. What gets me stuck is version controllability and backups.

I think ideally you'd want multiple backends, either SQLite, or flat files that are Git/SyncThing friendly.

I was even thinking the file format could have a file UUID and record timestamps, so that if you put a different version of the same file in the same folder(Like with a SyncThing conflict file) it would give you a merged view, with newest-record-wins logic.

Formulas I think would be the easy part. Just write it all in Python and use one of the many Excel compatible formulas implementations, and just make sure all changes went through the app.

Maybe you could even have a REST API to build other things on top of it.

The web frontend wouldn't be too hard, it could just be a Vue3 app with an HTML table element.

Then you could have a cell type who's value was a query, which would embed a DB browser list widget in the cell, and that cell type could have the option to bind its selected row to another cell.

Like VB+Excel+Access+My fork of Freeboard with inputs in one!

Re:What Is Wrong with TOML? by masklinn on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @08:17AM (#37495708)
For the most simplistic row-wise formulas, sqlite has generated columns.

I’d assume the issue will be that an sql table is not free form, you can’t randomly decide to write in some other cell.