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Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 10, 2023 @06:18PM (#37460694)
Many of the dissolved ions are used by organisms in the ocean and are removed from the water...

The two ions that are present most often in seawater are chloride and sodium. These two make up over 90% of all dissolved ions in seawater.

The other ten percent are micronutrients that are also essential to life.

Most land animals have a skeleton not just to provide physical scaffolding to hang tissue on but because we need a store of calcium to mediate blood pH, something sea life doesn't require thanks to those minerals in the water. That's why you can have sharks which are mostly supported by cartilage with one set of bones: Their jaws.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by Blahah on Sunday September 10, 2023 @06:23PM (#37460740)
I have long known sharks have cartilaginous skeletons but only just wondered whether that means shark bodies are squishy like human ears? Like if you hugged a shark would it deform?
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 10, 2023 @06:28PM (#37460760)
I don't know but I wouldn't recommend trying it, at least not without wearing chain mail. Their skin is abrasive if you hug them and call them George and rub their skin backwards.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @06:29PM (#37460772)
No. The human nose is mostly cartilage and it's hard.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by edgyquant on Sunday September 10, 2023 @06:41PM (#37460843)
It’s pretty soft compared to bone. I can push mine half way down to the skin.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by Calavar on Sunday September 10, 2023 @07:05PM (#37460994)
The lower half of the nose is cartilage and is pretty soft. The upper half of the nose hard and is bone.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by BuildTheRobots on Sunday September 10, 2023 @07:11PM (#37461030)
This is probably a stupid question, but if the upper half of the nose is bone, why does a human skull seem to always have a hole where the nose is?
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by AlotOfReading on Sunday September 10, 2023 @07:33PM (#37461146)
That's where the cartilage was. You can find that hole in your own skull easily enough. There should be a small bump midway up your nasal ridge. That point is called the rhinion. Everything above it is laying on your skull. The parts of the nose below it cover your nasal cavity.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by thfuran on Sunday September 10, 2023 @07:15PM (#37461047)
Because the bottom half isn't bone and the whole thing is hollow.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by Retric on Sunday September 10, 2023 @08:42PM (#37461532)
Anatomically correct skulls have an hole where the bottom of your nose is and the eyes are both smaller and higher up than you probably think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_(anatomy)#/media/File:Ey...

Looking at yourself in a mirror, if you hold your finger over the top of your nose your eyes will see under your finger. Move your finger just low enough so you’re seeing over it and you should be touching the bottom of your nasal bone. At that point your nose should be more than a finger width froward from the bottom of your orbital socket which is where the hole in skulls starts in those skulls.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by Calavar on Saturday September 16, 2023 @07:01AM (#37533710)
Look at a picture of a skull in profile. You'll see that there is half a nose, not no nose. That half of the nose that you can see is the bony part. The missing half is the cartilaginous part.

Why is there a hole? Because your nasal canal extends inside your skull to connect with the back of your throat. I guess I don't fully understand the question there.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by colordrops on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:10AM (#37463930)
Yeah you (well, I) can feel a distinct line between the bone and cartilage.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by Moto7451 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @11:59PM (#37462701)
While you can’t hug them, see if your nearest aquarium has a touch tank experience. Usually they do those with rays/skates but you can also find them with Nurse sharks. Either way, you’ll literally get a feel for their composition.

From memory it’s more like the stiff parts of your nose running near/along the bone and unlike your ears in any way.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by darkerside on Monday September 11, 2023 @08:21AM (#37466158)
My guess is that, yeah, if you empty them of water
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by gwerbret on Sunday September 10, 2023 @07:30PM (#37461130)
> we need a store of calcium to mediate blood pH

Blood pH is regulated mainly by dissolved carbon dioxide and bicarbonate [1]. There's an order of magnitude less calcium in the blood, usually in the form of calcium phosphate, than either of those, and the amount is extremely tightly regulated within a very narrow concentration range -- far too narrow to have a notable effect on pH.

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482291

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 10, 2023 @07:48PM (#37461229)
The majority of calcium ions within the cell are bound to intracellular proteins, leaving a minority freely dissociated. When calcium is added to or removed from the cytoplasm by transport across the cell membrane or sarcoplasmic reticulum, calcium buffers minimise the effect on changes in cytoplasmic free calcium concentration by binding calcium to or releasing calcium from intracellular proteins. As a result, 99% of the calcium added to the cytosol of a cardiomyocyte during each cardiac cycle becomes bound to calcium buffers, creating a relatively small change in free calcium.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_buffering

I raised and homeschooled two kids and watched a lot of when dinosaurs ruled the earth type stuff. That's my source for the idea that a store of calcium was critical for allowing life to leave the ocean and I've tried repeatedly to search for additional info on this and can never find it.

I have no problem imagining that calcium is essential for buffering pH in land mammals and that free calcium ions simultaneously are tightly regulated and not directly used to move that number for the blood in short time frames. That actually fits perfectly well with my mental models that cellular acidosis is a more fundamental problem that fuels acidosis of bodily fluids.

If anyone has any good sources that might clarify this relationship for me, that would be cool.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by levischoen on Sunday September 10, 2023 @08:41PM (#37461530)
How refreshing. A non defensive critically thoughtful reply to feedback during a public discourse
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 10, 2023 @08:45PM (#37461548)
It used to be somewhat common on HN. Then it got bigger and covid introduced the entire internet to Eternal September on steroids.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by eru on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:02AM (#37463880)
Even early Reddit used to be like this. Back when HN wasn't even opened yet.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by DoreenMichele on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:09AM (#37463922)
YC was founded in March 2005 and Reddit in June 2005. Reddit is a YC company.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by eru on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:13AM (#37463953)
I know. And HN is younger than Reddit.

HN != YC.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by DoreenMichele on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:19AM (#37464000)
Paul Graham substantially shaped both cultures from what I gather. So hardly shocking if something once common here was also common there.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by eru on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:30AM (#37464072)
It's possible, but I suspect demographics are more likely to be the main reason here. 'Eternal September on steroids' as you say.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by Retric on Sunday September 10, 2023 @08:07PM (#37461331)
> calcium is essential for buffering pH

Except that’s not what’s going on.

The Wikipedia article lays it out. The amount of hydrogen ions someplace is what PH means, so controlling PH is controlling the number of hydrogen ions.

The same thing happens with calcium, but rather than doing the buffering it’s the number of calcium ions being controlled. Calcium buffering is controlling the number of calcium ions.

> Calcium buffering describes the processes which help stabilise the concentration of free calcium ions within cells, in a similar manner to how pH buffers maintain a stable concentration of hydrogen ions.[1] The majority of calcium ions within the cell are bound to intracellular proteins, leaving a minority freely dissociated.[2] When calcium is added to or removed from the cytoplasm by transport across the cell membrane or sarcoplasmic reticulum, calcium buffers minimise the effect on changes in cytoplasmic free calcium concentration by binding calcium to or releasing calcium from intracellular proteins. As a result, 99% of the calcium added to the cytosol of a cardiomyocyte during each cardiac cycle becomes bound to calcium buffers, creating a relatively small change in free calcium.[2]

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 10, 2023 @08:17PM (#37461407)
Thank you.

In layman's terms, pH is a scale for measuring alkalinity vs acidity. Calcium is supposedly alkaline and high levels of intracellular calcium is associated with cell death (apoptosis).

So, for example, some people with CF avoid calcium because they think excess calcium causes cell death. But I think most likely excess calcium -- along with high levels of intracellular glutathione -- are a desperate attempt to buffer against something, including but not limited to excess acid.

So that's really what I'm interested in understanding. And also would love to see confirmation that calcium stores helped life leave the ocean and that wasn't something stupid and stated in error.

Though people with CF also likely misprocess sodium bicarbonate, in addition to being prone to very early onset osteoporosis (as early as their teens).

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by pdonis on Sunday September 10, 2023 @11:12PM (#37462435)
> Calcium is supposedly alkaline

More precisely, calcium is an alkali earth metal (second column from the left in the periodic table), and those metals are so named because the compounds in which they were first discovered were alkalis. But that does not mean all calcium compounds are alkalis. For example, calcium citrate, which is a common way to convey calcium in supplements, can be weakly acidic in water solution (because of the citrate ion).

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by hansvm on Monday September 11, 2023 @12:44AM (#37462977)
> Calcium is supposedly alkaline

Most reliable sources of information describing calcium as alkaline stem from PRAL (potential renal acid load) and other kidney literature. Combined with the right chemicals (as you find in the kidneys), calcium does reduce acidity (contrasted with a buffering agent, the formulae are more linear, and a linear amount of other shit requires a linear amount of calcium or other alkalizing compounds to compensate) in the kidneys.

As something of a fun aside, most "alkaline diets" recommend a diet of weakly to strongly acidic foods which have an alkalizing effect on the kidneys and nearly no pH impact anywhere else in the body.

No comment on the rest. I just want to reiterate that acid/alkaline in one context (most commonly a description of the hydrogen concentration or other related ions) absolutely does not translate without extra effort and math and chemistry to other contexts (like anything describing calcium as alkaline). When those two ideas are mixed in presentation, a correct interpretation absolutely requires you to understand the details of what/where/why an author means when they refer to pH as something other than hydrogen/hydroxide concentration.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by leplen on Sunday September 10, 2023 @11:08PM (#37462418)
It looks like there is a theory that dermal bone in early tetrapods was used this way, but it's still fairly speculative. https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna47176272
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 10, 2023 @11:10PM (#37462427)
Thank you:

Breathing air came with challenges, though. A major one was getting rid of the air's carbon dioxide, which, when it builds up, reacts with water in the body and forms an acid.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by eru on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:01AM (#37463868)
> I raised and homeschooled two kids and watched a lot of when dinosaurs ruled the earth type stuff. That's my source for the idea that a store of calcium was critical for allowing life to leave the ocean and I've tried repeatedly to search for additional info on this and can never find it.

Insects and friends manage to live on land just fine without any calcium bones.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by DoreenMichele on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:07AM (#37463914)
Dragonflies used to get to a two-foot wingspan. They don't anymore. The atmosphere was thicker and contained more oxygen.

What works once life is established on land can be different from what it took to transition to land and that's what I'm asking about.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by eru on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:14AM (#37463963)
There was more oxygen in the air when the dinosaurs roamed, but not when insects (and other critters) first came on land.

https://forces.si.edu/atmosphere/02_02_06.html says

> As plants became firmly established on land, life once again had a major effect on Earth’s atmosphere during the Carboniferous Period. Oxygen made up 20 percent of the atmosphere—about today’s level—around 350 million years ago, and it rose to as much as 35 percent over the next 50 million years.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by DoreenMichele on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:16AM (#37463974)
Irrelevant.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by eru on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:22AM (#37464018)
Huh?

The high oxygen levels you mentioned occurred long after life had successfully made its way on land.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by mykowebhn on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:50AM (#37464203)
The Wikipedia article you linked as a reference makes no mention about bones, but it does mention intracellular proteins as the location of where the majority of calcium ions are found.

I'll take wikipedia as a reference (with reservations), but children's television shows?

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by quickthrower2 on Monday September 11, 2023 @01:07AM (#37463112)
Thanks, that is fascinating. The amount of gold/silver is too. Even just the amount of salt. Measure in parts per 1000! I like having a wow moment about something we take for granted.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by eru on Monday September 11, 2023 @02:58AM (#37463846)
> Most land animals have a skeleton [...]

Most land animals don't have a skeleton. Most land animals are insects and similar critters.

Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by medstrom on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:08AM (#37463919)
They have exoskeletons, which still serve the stated purposes.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by eru on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:15AM (#37463971)
Those exoskeletons are made of chitin. Chitin is a carbohydrate. It doesn't really have much to do with calcium.
Re:Why Is the Ocean Salty? by thaumasiotes on Monday September 11, 2023 @03:44AM (#37464171)
> Most land animals have a skeleton not just to provide physical scaffolding to hang tissue on but because we need a store of calcium to mediate blood pH, something sea life doesn't require thanks to those minerals in the water. That's why you can have sharks which are mostly supported by cartilage

Well, the other reason sea life doesn't require rigid bones is that water provides a lot more buoyancy than air. Jellyfish work fine in the water; on land they're immobile puddles of glop.