News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Stories are bad for your intelligence: How Historians Mak... by ZeroGravitas on Monday September 04, 2023 @07:56AM (#37379631)
That seems more like nitpicking over definitions than anything relevant to this matter.

Your quote and several other parts of the story focus on the number being "made up" and yet the same person quoted by you also says:

> The problem, according to Bauer, who has debunked the number repeatedly in his writings over the decades, is not that non-Jews were not victims; they were. It is that Wiesenthal’s arbitrarily chosen tally of non-Jewish victims diminishes the centrality to the Nazi ideology of systematically wiping any trace of the Jewish people from the planet.

> In fact, he said, the term “genocide” could accurately be applied to the 2 million to 3 million Poles murdered and millions more enslaved by the Nazis. But the mass murder of the Poles, Roma and others should not come under the rubric “Holocaust,”

So that's up to 3 million Poles, up to half a million Roma, which only requires "others" to make up 1.5 million for the "made up" number to be exactly correct. A quick Google suggests about a quarter of a million disabled people, 20 thousand gay men. So in reality this seems a surprisingly accurate "lie".

What he appears to be mostly concerned about is that the term "Holocaust" be a specific term for the Nazi genocide of Jews, and other terms be used for their genocide of other groups.

If anything, his dramatic quote about telling Simon Wiesenthal he was spreading a lie is a better example of someone using drama to advance their opinion

Re:Stories are bad for your intelligence: How Historians Mak... by StackOverlord on Monday September 04, 2023 @09:15AM (#37380171)
> ‘Sometimes you need to do that to get the results for things you think are essential.’
Re:Stories are bad for your intelligence: How Historians Mak... by ZeroGravitas on Monday September 04, 2023 @10:11AM (#37380652)
Yeah, which is a quote relayed by a guy who disagreed with that person was doing and who seems to have a real bee in his bonnet about the topic under discussion, calling it a "lie" when I can't see any dispassionate observer agreeing with that characterisation.

Did the person allegedly quoted actually think it was lie? Seems amazingly lucky that he got so close to the real figure if he did. It feels like someone saying "sometimes you got to break the law to get things done" because they jaywalked in the middle of the night when out buying some milk. The drama of the comment just doesn't seem plausible at first glance.

Re:Stories are bad for your intelligence: How Historians Mak... by Michelangelo11 on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:22PM (#37383958)
Your count here relies heavily on the 2-3 million Poles, but to the best of my understanding, those were killed in war, either during actual battle or during the Wehrmacht's pillage and destruction. I say that because, according to the article, only ("only" ... yeah) 0.5 million non-Jews died in concentration camps:

> While as many as 35 million people were killed overall because of Nazi aggression, the number of non-Jews who died in the concentration camps is no more than half a million, Bauer said.

... so I can't see a way to reconcile that with the figure for Poles except by considering them overwhelmingly casualties of war, not a policy of extermination.

And so, as far as I can see, the original article is broadly right and your comment is inaccurate.

Re:Stories are bad for your intelligence: How Historians Mak... by ZeroGravitas on Monday September 04, 2023 @06:39PM (#37385823)
Your understanding is wrong, see here for details:

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/polish-vic...

Re:Stories are bad for your intelligence: How Historians Mak... by Michelangelo11 on Monday September 04, 2023 @08:55PM (#37386679)
I see, thank you.

EDIT: Also, this linked page on this very topic was pretty interesting to me. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documentin...