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Re:Fusion Foolery by oezi on Thursday August 17, 2023 @09:32AM (#37161296)
I think it is obvious to anyone following the technology trajectory that solar is the dominant energy source of the future. No other energy source is on a similar path to become cheaper so quickly.

We won't even focus on storing much of it but just build more and more.

Re:Fusion Foolery by jacquesm on Thursday August 17, 2023 @09:40AM (#37161396)
Solar + transport is good but still fragile, a cheap, durable and reliable means of storage would complete the picture.
Re:Fusion Foolery by hcurtiss on Thursday August 17, 2023 @02:06PM (#37165715)
What transport? You tried permitting a major transmission line in the western US lately?
Re:Fusion Foolery by jacquesm on Thursday August 17, 2023 @03:42PM (#37166913)
What societies do to make their energy problems worse has nothing to do with tech, that's entirely self inflicted.
Re:Fusion Foolery by pydry on Thursday August 17, 2023 @09:41AM (#37161417)
I think a lot of the skepticism around solar/wind/storage rests on an incorrect understanding of how easily variability can be dealt with. Which is understandable, because it's quite a complex problem to model.

The story on that is surprisingly positive, but it's quite easy to FUD because a lot of people will instinctively hear "well, the sun doesn't shine at night. check mate!" or "realistically, there just isn't enough space for all the pumped storage we need" and just believe them because it all sounds plausible enough and they don't see the trail of money spreading the FUD.

Re:Fusion Foolery by dahfizz on Thursday August 17, 2023 @09:47AM (#37161511)
Care to elaborate on what we do when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow, then?
Re:Fusion Foolery by pydry on Thursday August 17, 2023 @09:55AM (#37161632)
Demand shaping - Germany pioneered this by dialing aluminum smelter usage up and down in the early days. They didn't talk about it much, I think because it functioned as a kind of hidden subsidy and they didn't want to attract undue attention. There's LOTS of scope for stuff like heaters and vehicles batteries to use electricity when it's plentiful and cheap and turn it off when it's not. The UK has a special electricity tariff for this already which is very popular with electric car drivers. Demand shaping is, relative to storage, really cheap and usually gets forgotten about in skeptical renewable energy models.

Pumped storage and batteries for short term energy storage - hours to weeks. Australia is already building one pumped storage battery which should provide them with roughly 350GWh - roughly half of the short term storage they'd need if they had a 100% solar and wind based grid. With one plant. You can't do this in, e.g. Florida but the geography to build this is more than plentiful enough in most of the world (this topic is pretty well settled: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14555-y but for some reason people keep disputing it).

Hydrogen for seasonal storage - for weeks when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Roughly 2-3% of power will need to be stored this way on a 100% solar/wind grid. It's not efficient and expensive to generate hydrogen from electricity and then turn it back into electricity but still cheaper than generating and using nuclear power at the point of generation. It is cheap to store enormous amounts of power for long periods this way though.

Re:Fusion Foolery by dahfizz on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:39AM (#37162380)
Dam! 350GWh is massive. That's like 10x the current largest pumped hydro storage. Projects like that do make renewables much more compelling
Re:Fusion Foolery by shakow on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:08AM (#37161818)
Germany has still on average one of the dirtiest electricity of Western Europe, must import from its neighbors quite frequently, and is currently seeing the premises of an exodus of its industry due to energy cost; I'm not sure that using them as an example is pushing your argument.
Re:Fusion Foolery by oezi on Thursday August 17, 2023 @02:38PM (#37166123)
The sources of the high energy cost are:

- Ukraine conflict's impact on gas prices

- Cost of renewables from over 10 years ago when Germany jumpstarted the solar industry using subsidies.

- An ill-advised by highly popular switching off of nuclear plants. The Germans preferred higher energy prices now for less hassle and worries due to having Nuclear plants.

None of these points have any impact on the argument that solar is the clear winner of becoming the dominant energy source until 2050.

Re:Fusion Foolery by matkoniecz on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:07AM (#37161790)
The Australian project is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_2.0_Pumped_Storage_Power...

But it seems hardly replicable say in central Europe.

Re:Fusion Foolery by bryanlarsen on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:09AM (#37161832)
Maybe not now. But prices are reducing at 80% per decade, so it's likely only a few years away from being achievable.
Re:Fusion Foolery by matkoniecz on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:11AM (#37161861)
Even if solar would cost literally zero, then it does not solve problem that there is no place to fit such megasized pumped storage.

(I am speaking about central Europe or more specifically Poland)

Re:Fusion Foolery by bryanlarsen on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:41AM (#37162415)
You don't need rivers or even much of a slope for pumped storage. Just water and a few hundred feet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power...

Re:Fusion Foolery by matkoniecz on Tuesday August 22, 2023 @07:40AM (#37221295)
Hmm, apparently that is more demanding for locations than I thought

Though

> The plant takes advantage of the natural steep sand dune landform of eastern Lake Michigan

Re:Fusion Foolery by pydry on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:30AM (#37162213)
See the study linked to in my comment above.

In Europe there's some geography known as "the alps" which has been used for years this way by the countries surrounding it.

Poland's environmental record is atrocious on almost every level. I guess the coal lobby must run the government or something because nobody else in Europe that reliant on fuel that dirty. They're a model of how not to do anything right.

Re:Fusion Foolery by matkoniecz on Tuesday August 22, 2023 @07:39AM (#37221277)
> In Europe there's some geography known as "the alps" which has been used for years this way by the countries surrounding it.

Well, that is hardly solution for Poland.

Re:Fusion Foolery by oezi on Thursday August 17, 2023 @02:46PM (#37166209)
This doesn't make any sense. Just use fossils when there are no renewables available. Gas peakers for short term unavailability and others for medium unavailability.
Re:Fusion Foolery by pfdietz on Saturday August 19, 2023 @10:47AM (#37189350)
You don't need pumped hydro. Batteries + hydrogen would work fine in combination, and Europe (and in particular Poland) has enormous underground salt formations that could store millions of gigawatt-hours of hydrogen.
Re:Fusion Foolery by matkoniecz on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:00AM (#37161696)
> even though it's wrong

Which part is wrong? Except that we need more than 1-2 weeks worth of storage to rely on solar/wind as anything more than occasional addition.

Re:Fusion Foolery by pydry on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:04AM (#37161748)
E.g.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/much-storage-needed-solar-wind-p...

"Graham says that the CSIRO modelling showed that at very high levels of wind and solar, a maximum of half a day’s average demand was needed for storage. In some areas of the grid, only around three hours might be needed."

Or:

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2018/03/01/12-hours-energy-stora...

The amount of short term storage to get a grid between 80-95% running on solar/wind is measured in hours.

Electrolyzing and storing hydrogen in an underground cavern can buffer the rest and be stored easily for years if necessary.

Re:Fusion Foolery by TeMPOraL on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:15AM (#37161929)
That's the kind of just-in-time thinking that's one unfortunate dice roll from plunging people back to pre-industrial levels.

So what if we roll another Eyjafjallajökull in one part of the world, simultaneously with a war breaking out in another, and some large-scale maintenance ongoing in another part still, while everyone's grid is designed to keep "oh half a day's tops" and not a watt more, because ain't anyone gonna pay for it? With globally reduced capacity for, say, a week, that "half a day's average demand" worth of storage may start running dangerously low, and what then? Will we somehow scramble to fire up long-closed fossil fuel plants in that time?

Re:Fusion Foolery by matkoniecz on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:08AM (#37161823)
It seems to be about Australia, right? While not really applicable to for example Poland where solar and wind are far less stable.

Which one of reports at linked http://www.energynetworks.com.au/projects/electricity-networ... is one that you refer to here?

For the second one - is "more responsive loads" code for "load shedding" which is code for brownouts and blackouts?

Re:Fusion Foolery by oezi on Thursday August 17, 2023 @02:51PM (#37166280)
If you need to utilize 2 weeks of storage as a worst case once or twice per year then it doesn't seem an issue to just burn fossils for those instances.

The goal is to reduce Co2 emissions and replace fossil usage.

Re:Fusion Foolery by shakow on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:06AM (#37161780)
> even though it's wrong.

Well, empirically, we only observe that countries heavily relying on renewable (Denmark and Germany are the poster children) (i) have a much worse average CO2/kWh ratio, (ii) still need to import energy when, well, the wind does not blow and the Sun does not shine.

But feel free to elaborate on where this is wrong.

Re:Fusion Foolery by pydry on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:20AM (#37162020)
https://en.energinet.dk/About-our-news/News/2021/06/22/Danis...

117 looks ok to me. They're probably one of the most improved countries in the world in the last 10 years, although overall France's is likely still lower thanks to all their 1970s nuclear power plants - decarbonizing decades before anybody gave a damn about global warming.

For reference Poland is at like 650. They use an ungodly amount of coal. Environmentally Poland are an absolute a disaster, but, they didn't shut down a couple of aging nuclear power plants so they're on the good side of the American nuclear power lobby and get relatively little stick.

Re:Fusion Foolery by shakow on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:44AM (#37162474)
Poland is (i) a pretty poor country compared to Germany, (ii) does not present itself as the “obviously right way forward”, (iii) didn't close perfectly working nuke plants to please the Grüne, (iv) does not actively lobby with all its might against nuclear power in each and every single EU instance, (v) produces ~5× more electricity than Poland for ~2.7× the population, so they are obviously more impactful.

> they're on the good side of the American nuclear power lobby and get relatively little stick.

I'm French, I don't care about American nuke power lobby – and frankly, given the pitiful state of electricity CO2/kWh in the US and how much coal is burned, it seems that this lobby must not wield that much influence.

Re:Fusion Foolery by pydry on Saturday August 19, 2023 @06:31AM (#37187336)
>Poland is does not present itself as the “obviously right way forward”, (iii) didn't close perfectly working nuke plants to please the Grüne

Exactly why they haven't enraged the nuclear lobby. The nuclear lobby couldn't give a damn about the environment and neither does their supporters.

Re:Fusion Foolery by ekianjo on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:10AM (#37161848)
If its so wrong then why has no country or even a city ever achieved it?

Surely california has tons of taxpayer money in excess what is preventing them to do all that?