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Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by its-summertime on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @09:46PM (#37156156)
Doesn't touch on air conditioning, the fujifilm calculator lists cloud storage as vastly cheaper than disk-based storage, which AFAIK many would disagree with.

> HDDs have a lifespan of approximately five years

For an active datacenter, no?

And speaking of active, active storage lends itself to monitoring and automated healing a lot better than tape archives.

Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by reidjs on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @10:45PM (#37156549)
What does automated healing mean in this context?
Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by its-summertime on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @11:11PM (#37156698)
Assuming a sane RAID situation, e.g. data being duplicated onto multiple drives. If one of those drives fails, making additional duplicates onto the surviving drives, or rebuilding the data of the failed drive onto a new drive.

Can also be done with tapes, but you would require multiple tape drives (though if you can afford an automated library, thats probably nothing in comparison), additionally you can't find the failures until you take them out of "cold" storage.

If you can respond to the first failure when it happens, you can react before being hit by later failures hitting the duplicates. Downside is, since you have active components, failures are expected to be more common.

Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by laluser on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @11:03PM (#37156655)
HDDs designed for industry have a lifespan of longer than 5 years in typical data centers. In fact, recently there have been many teams across industry expanding the lifetime of HDDs past 5 years well into 6 and 7. You can also check out Backblaze's drive stats to see how many drives are actually going past this time span: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backblaze-drive-stats-for-q1-...
Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by RF_Savage on Thursday August 17, 2023 @02:23AM (#37157919)
And one would expect actual data center grade HDD's to do even better.

Backblaze is fameous for using piles upon piles of consumer grade discs in their offering. Which is why their stats are so valuable to folks who are not running data centers, but might want a reliable drive for their NAS.

Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by stonogo on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @11:53PM (#37156978)
Tape libraries all have active monitoring and have for a while.

But really, it's mostly about scale. Tape media is dense in a way that spinning disk can't catch up to.

Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by its-summertime on Thursday August 17, 2023 @01:17AM (#37157536)
~350cm³ for a tape, ~375cm³ for a 3.5in HDD, With HDDs being able to extend past the 18TB of LTO-9 tapes.
Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by adrian_b on Thursday August 17, 2023 @02:51AM (#37158107)
I am too lazy to measure them right now, but your numbers must be wrong.

Visually, an LTO cartridge cannot have much above a half of the volume of a 3.5" HDD and it must be at least 3 or 4 times lighter.

Carrying a suitcase with twenty LTO cartridges is as easy as carrying any other typical suitcase, but carrying twenty HDDs would not be easy at all, due to the great volume and weight, and the volume in a real situation would be greatly increased by the need of adding some serious padding, in order to avoid catastrophic damage if the suitcase were accidentally dropped.

More importantly, the price per TB of tapes is much lower, and when you consider the ratio between the expected lifetimes, the price per TB and per year is much, much lower.

Of course, tape drives are extremely expensive, so you need to store at least a couple hundred TB to break even with the price of HDDs.

Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by its-summertime on Thursday August 17, 2023 @03:31AM (#37158383)
You are right. double checked, I think it might have been some site listing the box size for some unknown reason, 260cm³ should be the correct size.
Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by stonogo on Thursday August 17, 2023 @05:10PM (#37168133)
Your analysis ignores cooling.
Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by rbanffy on Thursday August 17, 2023 @03:28PM (#37166726)
LTO-9 can cram 18TB uncompressed data onto a tape. A 3.5" HDD is a bit smaller, but we already see 25TB drives. They are much heavier though, so LTO has an edge on density per mass, while HDDs have an edge on density per volume. Tapes (specially in tape library) have a huge advantage in density per dollar as capacity increases linearly with the number of tapes.

OTOH, HDDs have much better latency, as even a powered down hard-disk will power up and retrieve data faster than the time it takes to load a tape and read it. I can imagine a number of ways to partition a HDD pool in ways that the access patterns allow for most drives to be unpowered at any given time.

Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by stonogo on Thursday August 17, 2023 @05:10PM (#37168128)
Having been responsible for several multi-petabyte storage projects, my experience is that TCO over a 20-year archive lifespan (LTO's design spec is 30, but boundary-pushing is not a good idea in the long-term storage game) is much lower for tape. Indeed you can't generally get reliable parts and support for disk shelves beyond about seven years, which means a full-solution refresh at least twice as often as with tape.

Most of the time the right answer is most of the storage in tape, with a couple of petabytes of disk in front of it to deal with hot data. Even in that circumstance you have to carefully manage the disk storage and filesystem or you wind up with client devices too new to access the supported fs version, another problem that basically does not exist with tape.

Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by rbanffy on Thursday August 17, 2023 @07:37PM (#37169754)
That's a good point - there is no such thing as a tape-only data storage system - you'll need RAM, flash, and HDDs to help ingest large quantities of data so that tape drives can have data ready to write.
Re:Tape Storage Might Be Computing’s Climate Savior by dabiged on Thursday August 17, 2023 @01:36AM (#37157653)
I think a lot of people have also been burned by the continuous new rollout of tape formats.

People invest in tape because it offers long term offsite storage, but vendors only offer drive life spans in the order of 4-6 years. After this they rollout higher capacity drives/cartridges and force everyone to refresh their entire hardware and tape collection because they end of life equipment. This costs millions of dollars for a medium sized enterprise.

LTO5 was released in 2010. It offers all the feature of a LTO9 tape (encryption, compression, RFID chips, partitioning, LTFS support) only with much less space per cartridge. These LTO5 cartridges are still readable with very low error rates regardless of how they were stored 13 years later, but sourcing drives is getting more difficult every year.

Tape media needs the equivalent of an LTS Operating System release, where a vendor will guarantee the drives, libraries and cartridge formats will be manufactured, supported and maintained for 20+ years.