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Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by __loam on Saturday August 12, 2023 @05:35PM (#37104452)
I think there's a pretty big difference between "this is what our knowledge of medicine and most experts in the field are telling us to do now and it's the best answer we have so we're going to do it until the consensus in the medical community changes" and "the science is settled". Nobody was trying to manipulate the "will of the citizens". Everyone in the medical and public health field was trying to prevent mass casualties and complete collapse of the healthcare system to the best of their ability using the knowledge they had. Not being able to discredit random morons commenting on the situation with absolutely no expertise is an insane take.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by AlbertCory on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:14PM (#37105369)
> Everyone in the medical and public health field was trying to prevent mass casualties and complete collapse of the healthcare system to the best of their ability using the knowledge they had

Um, no. Wrong. The Great Barrington Declaration was not put out by a bunch of "random morons." Yet Francis Collins said it needed a quick and devastating takedown. Someone with scientific integrity would have said your first quote, not that.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by __loam on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:32PM (#37105465)
When I say "Everyone" what I mean is, the vast majority of the scientific community in both those fields. Fringe ideas like this idea that we could have reached herd immunity in 3 months would have killed literally millions of people that didn't have to die. Especially true considering how quickly we were able to develop a vaccine.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by AlbertCory on Saturday August 12, 2023 @09:00PM (#37105612)
Ah, "the vast majority" other than the ones at the top?

And by the "fringe idea" you mean the one that the virus was a lab leak? That fringe idea?

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by freshpots on Saturday August 12, 2023 @09:23PM (#37105740)
You sidestepped their point:

"Fringe ideas like this idea that we could have reached herd immunity in 3 months would have killed literally millions of people that didn't have to die. Especially true considering how quickly we were able to develop a vaccine."

Also, many prominent and credible scientists did support the lab leak hypothesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lab_leak_theory

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by AlbertCory on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:19PM (#37106049)
No, they sidestepped the main point about integrity. You don't get to tar your opposition with the actions of a few nutcases.

The "many prominent and credible scientists [who] did support the lab leak hypothesis" faced merciless censoring & blacklisting for it.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by freshpots on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:56PM (#37106251)
The fringe ideas about herd immunity and the Great Barrington Declaration go hand in hand.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/521159-dozens-of-publi...

The Great Barrington Declaration was indeed the actions of a few nutcases and was not supported by science. Furthermore, many signatories were venturing way out of their lane/expertise along with, likely, a majority that were not even real/certainly not remotely close to being an expert:

"While the authors' website claims that over 14,000 scientists, 40,000 medical practitioners, and more than 800,000 members of the public signed the declaration, this list—which anyone could sign online and which required merely clicking a checkbox to claim the status of "scientist"—contains some evidently-fake names, including: "Mr Banana Rama", "Harold Shipman", and "Prof Cominic Dummings". More than 100 psychotherapists, numerous homeopaths, physiotherapists, massage therapists, and other non-relevant people were found to be signatories, including a performer of Khoomei—a Mongolian style of overtone singing—described as a "therapeutic sound practitioner". An article in The Independent reported that the false signatures put claims about the breadth of support in doubt. Bhattacharya responded by saying that the authors "did not have the resources to audit each signature," and that people had "abused our trust" by adding fake names."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Barrington_Declaration#S...

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by AlbertCory on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:33PM (#37106431)
uh-huh. All those deplorables.

"not supported by science" -- i.e. the Establishment didn't like them.

Instead of looking at the fake names, how about we look at the non-fake ones?

Like Jay Bhattacharya, Sunetra Gupta, and Martin Kulldorff. Are they nutcases, too?

And your fake name issue actually IS addressed in here:

https://gbdeclaration.org/why-was-the-declaration-written/

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by __loam on Sunday August 13, 2023 @01:21AM (#37106924)
The fact that you're using the word "deplorables" kind of gives away your views here. There's room for debate but going for herd immunity would have been utter insanity to be frank. We know how bad uncontrolled Covid would get from places like Italy early in the pandemic and it wasn't pretty. You're basically saying you'd be willing to accept millions more people in the United States dying of this disease so we can maybe get back to a functional economy in 3 months. And the deaths would increase as we ran out of things like ventilators and asthma medication that we're actually shown to be effective treatments. Your view is incredibly callous.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by dent9876543 on Sunday August 13, 2023 @05:09AM (#37108083)
Wasn’t the point to try to protect the more vulnerable?

Realise that we solidly failed to do this with all our masks and measures.

I’m not at all convinced that by those who argue it was not possible to apply focused protection. We spent so much on unfocused protection. What if we took those resources — or even just a fraction of them — and redirected them to those at most need.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by __loam on Sunday August 13, 2023 @06:09AM (#37108414)
The point of masks was always to limit community spread, principally to prevent a situation where hospitals are so full you can't treat regular issues like car crash victims. In practice that means you do try to keep vulnerable people out of the hospital but it's not the main concern if you're goal is to prevent a really bad public health situation.

Masks and social distancing absolutely had an effect on the situation, and the main reason we had to do unfocused solutions as you call them is because people infected with Covid did not always have symptoms, and it was extremely contagious. If algae is exponentially covering a pond, it covers half the pond the day before it covers the whole pond. The exponential nature of infection is really hard to reason about and I think people like you really aren't understanding that at the time, with no vaccines, the only way to protect the most vulnerable was to reduce community spread. You also don't have a magic eight ball telling you who might get hospitalized. We had really fit people dying in two weeks. There was no way to tell who was and wasn't vulnerable.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by AlbertCory on Sunday August 13, 2023 @12:38PM (#37111520)
ah, I see. You have a one-way view of political leanings. Got it. You're not only deplorable if you question "the science," you're deplorable if you use the word "deplorable."

also, skipping over the most egregious thing of all: censoring anyone who suggested lab-leak.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by AlbertCory on Sunday August 13, 2023 @12:33PM (#37111472)
And thanks for illustrating the main point: anyone who dared to question the "settled science" got a Twitter rage mob howling at them and hurling feces like a pack of monkeys. Including some "journalists."
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by spookthesunset on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:13PM (#37106011)
It only seemed like “the vast majority” because to go against the grain, no matter how right you are, would instantly label you an alt-right grandma killing asshole. You’d probably destroy your reputation and career standing up for what you think is right.

I mean hell, there are people right in this post calling dudes horrible grandma killers for stating rational, logical opinions against “everyone”.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by __loam on Sunday August 13, 2023 @01:15AM (#37106903)
I mean how right were they? There's hundreds if not thousands of cases of people "going against the grain" and then dying of Covid. People did die because someone wanted to spread some ignorant ideas about what they thought of the pandemic.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by GeekyBear on Sunday August 13, 2023 @12:24AM (#37106656)
> Everyone in the medical and public health field was trying to prevent mass casualties and complete collapse of the healthcare system to the best of their ability using the knowledge they had. Not being able to discredit random morons commenting on the situation with absolutely no expertise is an insane take.

In the pandemic, those in charge were asserting that Covid was a virus with a droplet based spread (like the flu) and were shutting down domain experts who asserted that Covid was a virus that was fully airborne (like the measles).

> Aerosol researchers started warning that "the world should face the reality" of airborne transmission in April 2020. Then in June, some claimed that it was "the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19".

In July, 239 scientists signed an open letter appealing to the medical community and governing bodies to recognize the potential risk of airborne transmission.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2021/05/04/who-corona...

Because they were only willing to accept a theory that was incorrect and ignored domain experts, those in charge were pushing mitigations that could never be effective against a virus you caught by breathing.

No amount of hand washing, wiping down surfaces, putting up sneeze guards, or staying six feet apart can possibly protect you from breathing in a virus that floats in the air.

This was the biggest failure of the pandemic, and it took two years for the truth to start being begrudgingly accepted.

https://qz.com/it-took-two-years-for-the-who-to-admit-covid-...