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Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by zdw on Sunday August 06, 2023 @05:58PM (#37027299)
This software is the epitome of a roach motel, or Hotel California - data enters, but can never leave. Epic software is so proprietary and customized for each customers that two hospitals using it can't even exchange records, or have the same interaction methodology (source: I have family that worked at two large hospitals, both with Epic).

People had a fit over Windows in the 90's and 2000's being proprietary lock in, but it was never the OS that was the problem, it was MS Office format lock-in that caused all the issues, which is still a problem.

Open, simple, interoperable formats are the way out. We need more of these, especially in the health care sector.

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by Herodotus38 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:23PM (#37027531)
This is not universally true, but I don’t know where your family works or in what capacity. There are a lot of issues with epic but unfortunately it is the best out of all the garbage out there. Out of all the EMR’s I have used, Epic is the easiest to share information both within different hospitals using epic and sharing from epic to other emrs like Cerner. Source: Am physician who has worked in many different hospitals, and use Cerner currently, grabbing info from Epic most days.
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by secabeen on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:00PM (#37027848)
Yeah, I'm starting to see records from different medical organizations showing up in each other's EPIC MyChart logins. Not terrible!
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by zdw on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:11PM (#37027932)
FWIW, two separate deployments of Epic done in the last 15 years at two hospitals, from the perspective of folks working in the pharmacy.
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by Herodotus38 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @09:50PM (#37029045)
In the last five years, it’s gotten a lot better. But I could see before then things are still pretty bad even with epic.
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by pajushi on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:10PM (#37027414)
Unless you have additional sources, you're not being very honest. Standards exist like FHIR, published by HL7 which sets global standards for healthcare. https://www.hl7.org/

Epic provides support for these standards. https://fhir.epic.com/

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by adwf on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:34PM (#37027609)
FHIR is about as far from what I'd call a standard as you can get. Each individual country/region/hospital/department/lab can define "profiles" that configure the data to their specific use case and no-one else's. Not exactly the aim of a standard in the usual computing sense.
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by nradov on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:59PM (#37027842)
The baseline HL7 FHIR standard is more of a toolkit than something intended for real-world interoperability. Fortunately there are multiple FHIR accelerators such as CodeX, Argonaut, Da Vinci, etc which write detailed Implementation Guides for specific use cases. Any organization can follow those IGs and be confident of achieving meaningful interoperability. Some of them are even mandated by federal regulations.

http://www.hl7.org/about/fhir-accelerator/index.cfm

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by ClumsyPilot on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:14PM (#37027449)
Does it actually work in practice? I often see 'theoretical' support, you can export data but if you re-import it, it's all fucked.

Like Zigbee, in theory like every company supports it but in practice moat imlementations is not compatiable with each-other

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:19PM (#37027493)
Yes; Epic participates in the CareEverywhere network which has a gateway to the CareQuality network, thus supporting decent interoperability with other hospitals and clinics using a variety of EHRs.

Now, how much they share is potentially open to debate.

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by rawgabbit on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:25PM (#37027546)
Is there any public documentation on Epic and how one can interact with it?
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by nradov on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:34PM (#37027608)
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by nradov on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:36PM (#37027626)
Yes, it works in practice. The trouble is more with the customers than the vendor. Some customers are still using obsolete versions that are missing the latest standards-based open interoperability features. Or they just haven't enabled those features.
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by xcskier56 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:06PM (#37027891)
My favorite way to describe the issues with FHIR is semantic vs syntactical interoperability.

Using FHIR means syntactically interoperability. Same structure, uses json, things generally in the same place.

Semantic interoperability means that the 2 systems can understand each other… just using FHIR is NOT enough for this. Different value sets and ways of representing the same information mean that 2 systems view of the same data may be very different.

I liken this to when I walked into a bar in a small town in Northern Ireland. I was speaking English, the bartender was speaking English, but we could not understand each other. We eventually figured things out but it was TOUGH to communicate even though we were ostensibly speaking the same language.

This is what FHIR apis from 2 different vendors are like. Same “language” remarkably different dialects

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by SkyPuncher on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:15PM (#37027965)
Those standards are the equivalent to JSON or XML.

They still require massive amounts of implementations.

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by pajushi on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:35PM (#37028103)
Look at the maturity level of the HL7 resource. Those that are higher (5-6) are going to have more agreement on standards and have more turnkey setup.

For example, condition in the US is likely to use ICD-10. Procedures, especially those billed are going to use CPT or HCPCS.

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by FireBeyond on Sunday August 06, 2023 @08:24PM (#37028462)
Epic provides support for their implementation of the standard.

Any person working in healthcare software, which I did for 15 years, knows that for every standard there is a myriad of vendor implementations, bugs, hacks, workarounds, and just saying "System A speaks FHIR and System B does too" does not mean you can just load an EHR dataset from A into B and have all the information usable.

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by dekhn on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:29PM (#37028053)
On the contrary: when I moved from Kaiser to Sutter, it was a single push-button to move my entire EHR over (once I consented to the doctor). The doctor told me it's generally that easy when you have two Epic instances (note: I'm not directly denying what you say, because I know enough about Epic and EHRs to be suprised at my doctor's ease).
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by FireBeyond on Sunday August 06, 2023 @08:21PM (#37028435)
It really is. And it's not good software. The UI looks decidedly amateur, and some of the modules are absolute garbage amateur hour (one I see a lot in my job is the ED track board, which captures information from the ED charge nurse about incoming ambulances, bed holds and cleaning needs, and gives a picture on what the ED might look like in the next hour or so).

It looks like a VB app from the 90s. Text layout is poor, often overflowing boxes, it's not customizable.

Epic is where it is because hospitals are so fucking locked in.

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by hanklazard on Sunday August 06, 2023 @10:05PM (#37029164)
It’s total shit.

I’m rooting for something like this in the long term: https://github.com/openemr/openemr

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by FireBeyond on Monday August 07, 2023 @07:15PM (#37042233)
I love the idea of OpenEMR.

I desperately want it to gain some real traction.

Working in the enterprise world, including the enterprise healthcare world... it's not "right", but as long as it exists as a PHP webapp...

I don't see that happening. No matter how good a PHP webapp it is.

I really want it to succeed. But there is so much further to go. For example, on the subject of backing up your EMR data, there is this:

> Disaster can strike at anytime. Backing up will mean the difference between a mild inconvenience and a major imbroglio.

> Choose a method according to the operating system from this webpage.

> Windows users are advised not to rely on the built-in utility once their file size becomes too large. The reasons are discussed in this Forum thread.

That's it?? That's the extent of your backup discussion for a business critical application storing PHI? Oof.

Any CIO remotely considering OpenEMR, even one hugely cost-constrained, is going to run for the hills.

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by doubleg72 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @10:30PM (#37029338)
No, it’s because they don’t pay for another HL7 interface. I am network admin for hospitals and see it daily. We use Meditech anyways, not even close to everyone uses Epic.
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by x0x0 on Monday August 07, 2023 @02:53AM (#37031103)
Epic was a 10m+ loc vb6 app in the 90s.

That said, lots of the problems with Epic is it is used so differently between hospitals/installs. It's less a EMR + scheduler + hospital management app than a toolkit used to construct those for big enough medical companies. That inevitably doesn't lead to nice software: see all enterprise software everywhere.

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by iancmceachern on Sunday August 06, 2023 @08:53PM (#37028634)
True facts.

Source - I design medical devices

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by Spooky23 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @09:17PM (#37028801)
My wife is dealing with cancer and associated complications at three distinct hospitals and a national cancer center.

The two hospitals on Epic are great - all of her records are immediately exchanged. The third hospital has a shitty cerner system and has problems sharing between departments. The cancer center has an excellent patient portal but doesn’t integrate.

Ultimately these problems are difficult as the creation of Medicare and Medicaid happened during the early days of computing. So we’re stuck with 75 years of legacy.

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by hanklazard on Sunday August 06, 2023 @10:07PM (#37029171)
I’m sorry, that’s terrible. Best wishes to her and your whole family.
Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by analogj on Monday August 07, 2023 @08:05PM (#37042682)
Sorry to hear about your wife's health issues, I hope she's on the mend. I had a similar experience when dealing with my chronic condition. Had to interact with almost a dozen different health portals, a couple of which were ok, the rest were awful.

I'm a software engineer, so I ended up creating my Personal Health Record (PHR) application, which I eventually open-sourced - https://github.com/fastenhealth/fasten-onprem

It's still a work in progress (and definitely not ready to be used as the primary source-of-truth), but I'm always looking for actionable feedback/contributors. I'd love to hear your thoughts

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by HaZeust on Sunday August 06, 2023 @10:07PM (#37029175)
"Open, simple, interoperable formats are the way out. We need more of these, especially in the health care sector."

We're getting there quickly with FHIR!

Re:The Billionaire Who Controls Your Medical Records (2021) by analogj on Monday August 07, 2023 @08:07PM (#37042705)
I've been working on my own Open-Source Personal Health Record (PHR) that leverages FHIR & Smart-on-FHIR https://github.com/fastenhealth/fasten-onprem

Hopefully with the Cures Act Final Rule, interoperability will become the norm