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Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by corin_ on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @06:22AM (#3697754)
I think few people would argue that drug companies' prices are reasonable, and when it comes to life vs. death I no longer care much about the "they're a business, they're allowed to make a profit" line - of course it's still true, and of course they are, but there's a (subjective) line between "making a good profit" and killing people through greed.

That said, what pricing would be fair? When people claim that these pills cost bugger all to make, the answer is (perfectly validly) that the second pill costs bugger all, the first one costs $$$$ in R&D. So I don't know how cheap they would have to be to be considered a fairer price, and I've no idea if it's possible for anyone outside the companies to work out - even if you ignore the fact that what's fair is so subjective.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @06:28AM (#3697763)
This is a difficult decision to rule on, without resorting to petty emotions, without access to the underlying data. One must balance the incentive for drug companies to develop drugs (and get that development financed) with the price inelasticity of the healthcare market.

There is marginal cost, the cost to produce one more product independent of development cost, and fully amortised cost, which amortises the development (and, holistically, finances future development). Saying we should abolish innovator drug patents ignores the latter.

If we take the assumption that a life tomorrow is worth about a life today cutting pharma's revenues 97% means the development model is unsustainable. The government would have to develop drugs (or promise to refund all or most of the cost of developing a drug that gets FDA approved).

On the other hand we know that, since most people will pay whatever they able to for healthcare, drug companies have too much leverage. The market doesn't function well un-aided.

The problem here is the way this decision has been implemented throws up a lot of regulatory uncertainty. Having an objective framework for how innovator drug companies can be subject to need-based forced licencing (and under what boilerplate terms) would allow pharma companies to plan how to allocate development dollars.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by tripzilch on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @08:43AM (#3698119)
While assuming that a life tomorrow is worth about a life today might be reasonable, we're talking about research costs for drugs, and the comparison does not hold to assume that a new drug tomorrow is worth about an already existing drug today.

New drugs are often about squeezing out those last few years of life-expectancy, and even if they're not, they're a marginal increase over today's drugs. Meanwhile today's drugs fail to save many many lives because they are unaffordable in order to pay for R&D on new drugs (which will also be unaffordable).

See, the system is very broken on both sides.

But the choice to me seems very clear:

- on the one hand you have +developing new future drugs. except those drugs will only be affordable to a tiny fraction of the world population. additionally this lines the pockets of big pharma and the bureaucracy that keeps the system broken as it currently is ("Bayer was disappointed")

- on the other hand developing new drugs will be slowed down for some time, but all people will be able to afford the many current ones that could be saving lives today, big pharma + your FDA bureaucracy will fail and maybe that opens room for a new and better system to emerge so that R&D on drugs may start once more but in a more efficient manner. All the while lives are being saved and quality of live is being improved because today's drugs are affordable to everyone.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @09:03AM (#3698186)
Every drug we enjoy today was once a future drug. Your reasoning promotes the equivalent of seizing all investment dollars from VC and IPO investors and using it to spread existing inventions and innovations to a broader base.

Lives are being saved and quality of life improving...for everyone who doesn't have a disease we haven't yet cured or which hasn't become treatment resistant (biology is adamantly lassez-faire).

The industry needs regulatory upheaval and new ways of financing itself. But if the response is to throw away the ability to recoup the initial investment profitably, medical research will just start devoting funds to making treatments exclusive, e.g. only invest in custom/on-site medicine.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by anamax on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @10:00AM (#3698437)
> On the other hand we know that, since most people will pay whatever they able to for healthcare

"we" don't know that. In fact, we know that it's wrong.

When people are spending their own resources, they plan their non-emergency spending.

For example, I'll bet that you don't take the vitamins that you should. You probably also don't exercise as you should. It's money and time that you could easily afford, yet ....

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by anamax on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @04:55PM (#3700390)
An even better example is that many (most?) folks don't choose the most expensive health-plan at work when they have to pay the difference between it and a less expensive plan.

And then there are Flex spending plans. Folks put money into those plans so they can pay for health care with pre-tax money, giving them lower out of pocket costs for healthcare.

Look at how people handle their deductibles and co-pays - again, they try to minimize their costs.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by leonth on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @06:33AM (#3697781)
Truth is, clinical trials are mind-bogglingly expensive and takes years for turnover. Also some newer drugs (I'm not sure about Nexavar) are rightfully expensive to manufacture due to requirements in equipment, sterile conditions, etc.

If I were to say anything negative about this it would be that this sets a bad precedent for any new drugs coming to India -- knowing that the government can effectively void out drug patents after certain number of years, the big pharmas probably would not want to set up shop in the country altogether. Does that sound familiar?

This town is no longer friendly for business.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by Indyan on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @06:59AM (#3697850)
On principle, you are right. However, Rs 2.8 lakh for 1 month of pills is inordinately expensive. It's something that no one but aristocrats will be able to afford. By the standards of the Indian society, I fall in the upper middle class category, and that amount is almost half of my annual salary (more than half after tax deductions). To get an idea about how expensive it is, just think whether you could afford to buy a new car (even a cheap one) every month. Another point worth noting is that most Indians don't have medical insurance, since typical healthcare is quite cheap in India.

Under the new forced licensing terms, Bayer will still be making money. In fact, it might end up making pretty much the same as before, since volume will increase dramatically thanks to the 97% price cut.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by ig1 on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @07:50AM (#3697973)
Bayer doesn't have a problem with selling cheaper drugs to poor people, they do have a problem when those drugs go onto the grey market and get purchased by those who could afford Bayer's regular price.

That's why drug companies don't do differential pricing, because they can't stop the cannibalization of their wealthier markets.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by matwood on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @09:59AM (#3698435)
Exactly. It's very similar to how content companies try to control the release of content and pricing around the world (region codes ugh). If any pharm company sells drug A in the US for $100 and sells the same drug in Africa for $1 then it's an obvious arbitration opportunity. They are trying to prevent the 'flat world' from eating sales by simply pricing it the same everywhere.
Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by vamsee on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @08:46AM (#3698131)
That's alright, as an Indian I support this action, and am ready to face the consequences. After all, we have 'socialist' in the constitutional definition of the republic. It's about time we invoked it for a good cause once in a while.
Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by shalinmangar on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @07:26AM (#3697909)
In case of Nexavar, another company is able to manufacture far more cheaply and that says something about Bayer. Either they are unable to manufacture cheaply or they are unwilling to price it cheaper.

Suppose that big pharma stops selling drugs in India. That wouldn't make much difference because the generic drug manufacturers would still make cheap copies of the drugs. The only downside would be that new drugs will take time to be introduced because of the time needed to reverse engineer the formulae and set up manufacturing capabilities.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by danssig on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @06:32AM (#3697779)
> I no longer care much about the "they're a business, they're allowed to make a profit" line - of course it's still true, and of course they are,

I disagree here. Pure laissez faire capitalism works no better than pure communism or socialism. You need a mix of both to have a functioning economy and IMO it should be pretty clear at this point that health care works best (cheapest and most effective) on the socialism side. American has the most expensive health care in the world, but not the best service.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by nickik on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @07:42AM (#3697953)
So if the businesses make no more money how will the invest in R&D for new medication? Im not advocating pure capitalism but businesses have to make some profit.

I agree that the more socialsist systems work better atm but this does not include development of new medication and equipment. Would you want that in gov hands too?

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by danssig on Wednesday March 14, 2012 @08:09AM (#3702775)
>Im not advocating pure capitalism but businesses have to make some profit.

Agreed. Which is why health care shouldn't be a business. It leads to perverse profit incentives and it's an inelastic market in any case (you can't "opt out" of care for a heart attack).

>Would you want that in gov hands too?

Not in US government hands, no. But more competent governments could certainly handle this via grants (in fact, I think even the US does this to some degree), etc.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by DanBC on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @06:40AM (#3697796)
See also the unethical marketing of anti-cancer medication to cancer patients; skirting strict laws in the UK by funding "patient groups" who campaign to have those meds made available on the National Health Service when the meds have been shown to be ineffective.
Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by tomjen3 on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @11:38AM (#3698882)
>I disagree here. Pure laissez faire capitalism works no better than pure communism or socialism.

Relevant citation please.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by danssig on Wednesday March 14, 2012 @08:12AM (#3702782)
You're not going to like this [1] source, but it's very well cited. To my knowledge, Chile is the only time true free market capitalism was ever tried anywhere in the world.

[1] http://www.spunk.org/texts/intro/faq/sp001547/secC11.html

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by mseebach on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @08:17AM (#3698046)
> I no longer care much about the "they're a business, they're allowed to make a profit" line

You have to consider both the seen and the unseen: consider the case where a drug is not developed in the first place because the return on investment is (expected to be) forcefully lowered below where it is profitable. Or even more abstract: research is slowed down due to more risk adverse behaviour, delaying a major breakthrough.

Investing in drug development is very expensive and very risky. Very risky investments command a large return on their success.

It's easy to focus on the large sums of money being made on specific drugs, but pharma as an industry isn't inherently more profitable that other industries as a result. The cost of lower prices on successful drugs is going to come from somewhere.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by wisty on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @07:17AM (#3697885)
Perhaps the FDA should bankroll clinical trials, subject to a pre-agreed price and a reasonable case that the trial will work out. Monopoly sellers and monopoly buyers is fairer than a monopoly seller.
Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @07:27AM (#3697911)
This would result in:

(1) the FDA regulating access, pricing, and financing to the pharmaceutical industry, effectively nationalizing it, and,

(2) the US effectively bankrolling pharma for the rest of the world (it does this to a large extent already, but this would throw the scales all the way).

It would also have little effect on what innovator (or generic, for that matter) drug companies could charge outside the US.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by crusso on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @08:51AM (#3698151)
So instead of private companies employing the top researchers who are jockeying for success in an open market that decides the winners and losers through doctors' and consumers' choices, you end up with winners and losers being picked by politicians, bureaucrats, and lobbyists.

Then when the whole system is ineffective, corrupt, counter-productive, and an enormous wastes our tax dollars (see the current FDA, PTO, DOE, etc.), what will happen? Well, at best, nothing. At worst, the Statists will use the lack of success as an excuse to take over even more of the system. Maybe the FDA would then want to hire the researchers to design and test the drugs in the first place. They would need a bigger budget for that.

Re:Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer dru... by Symmetry on Tuesday March 13, 2012 @08:03AM (#3698007)
In this situation who decides what drugs go into clinical trials? The drug companies are in a much better position to know which drugs are worthwhile, but if they don't pay the price they have to reason not to throw everything at the wall to see what sticks.