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Re:No telemetry in the Rust compiler: metrics without betray... by 0xbadcafebee on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:43PM (#36960487)
What privacy concerns? What the hell are they putting in the telemetry that the user should be afraid of being sent over an encrypted connection? Is my bank account number being included in the compiler metrics?

At this point I consider any advocate of "privacy" in a tech context to be an anti-intellectual cargo-cultist. Just look at the linked article. Absolutely not one single example of a privacy violation or its implications. They just waive their hands in the air and say "it's contentious" and "risk is too great". Let's completely avoid an actual discussion of privacy, and just assume that any information about a user (like their IP address) will immediately result in them being sent to a gulag, despite no evidence that this has ever happened, much less how often, how likely, ways to avoid it, or the benefits that are lost by not allowing for said insanely-unlikely-risk. It's people afraid of their own shadow that would rather live in a prepper shelter than deal with the real world.

Of course we should completely ignore the fact that this is developer software, and they, being technical people, have many means to disable specific outgoing network connections if they so choose. But better to be paranoid than rational, because "trust is key".

Re:No telemetry in the Rust compiler: metrics without betray... by Groxx on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:02PM (#36960859)
>What privacy concerns?

The core thing to understand here is that what constitutes their concerns is not your decision. It's theirs.

You don't know what they put in their code. Maybe they did put their bank account in a function name. The tool won't tell them they shouldn't have done that, and there's currently no reason why they shouldn't if they're just playing around.

Similarly, you don't know what they're doing or how doing that might expose them in ways they might care about. If my country decides to outlaw something and starts looking for mentions of it and jailing people, your decision yesterday could endanger me. This happens with some regularity, and you can't reliably predict the topics that get targeted.

I generally approve telemetry for tools because I know how useful it is. But I see no reason why that should be your choice instead of mine.

Re:No telemetry in the Rust compiler: metrics without betray... by 0xbadcafebee on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:18PM (#36961103)
> Maybe they did put their bank account in a function name.

Thank you for proving my point - again, no rational debate here. Obviously nobody would ever make a function name their bank account number. And why would metrics include function names? Metrics are numbers, not logs.

> Similarly, you don't know what they're doing or how doing that might expose them in ways they might care about. If my country decides to outlaw something and starts looking for mentions of it and jailing people, your decision yesterday could endanger me. This happens with some regularity, and you can't reliably predict the topics that get targeted.

Yet another contrived example that has nothing to do with the subject at hand and has no rational basis for happening. A random country creates a random law that happens to outlaw a compiler metric? You think a country's gonna make software development illegal soon?

> I generally approve telemetry for tools because I know how useful it is. But I see no reason why that should be your choice instead of mine.

Nobody's taking away your choices! You don't want telemetry? Block the outgoing connections! Disable it in a config file! Use a friggin' VPN like all the other privacy-paranoid do!

Re:No telemetry in the Rust compiler: metrics without betray... by Groxx on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:35PM (#36961448)
"Telemetry" frequently includes more than low-cardinality metrics. This article (and my root comment) mentions crash information, for example, which could easily include function names and other user information (username is often part of file paths, which are often part of crash information).

And the example is really not contrived. For example, homosexuality has waffled between "get married, love is love" and "your government is explicitly trying to kill you" repeatedly around the world. Congratulations! You worked on Grindr two years ago when they started their internet dragnet, as they can see by information coming from your compiler, on your machine, at your home! You now have to flee the country. They're not going to be looking for your compiler crash logs, they're looking at everything they can possibly collect for keywords, and oopsie, there's one.

You (you personally and the "royal" you) cannot predict what will matter in the future, and your legitimate-threats do not match everyone else's legitimate-threats. I agree privacy-extremists exist, but so do other kinds of extremists and extreme situations.

Re:No telemetry in the Rust compiler: metrics without betray... by estebank on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:52PM (#36961700)
For crash reports the only elements included are coming from the compiler (the symbols of the stack trace do not leak user data), but the panic description can leak symbols from the user's code. For automated mechanisms you could make it so that nothing user generated is sent, but a lot of consideration is needed to not make a mistake.
Re:No telemetry in the Rust compiler: metrics without betray... by 0xbadcafebee on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @06:32PM (#36964150)
Crash reports are not telemetry, they are debugging/error reporting tools. Every application that has ever had a crash reporting function, did so by prompting the user to submit it first. The reason is pretty obvious: crash reports contain more data than a user might like to submit, and so the user gets to choose to submit it or not. Often they do choose to submit it, but again, they get the choice, and don't need to go through an awkward process to manually copy their offline data into an online process. Nobody has stopped using operating systems and browsers just because they have a crash reporter that can optionally submit the crash report to an internet site.

Telemetry is not sensitive data. Telemetry is "signals". For desktop software, telemetry is often what operating system, cpu architecture, and software version you're running. Your OS reports that, your browser reports that, every self-updating application you use reports that. This is not controversial nor sensitive data and has no privacy implication.

Re:No telemetry in the Rust compiler: metrics without betray... by LightFog on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:46PM (#36961612)
Some apps collect full memory dumps - on Windows at least there is nothing stopping them. That will indeed contain your bank details.
Re:No telemetry in the Rust compiler: metrics without betray... by krono on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:26PM (#36961260)
Sometimes the subject of a person's concerns exists beyond their own ego. This is perfectly normal and surprisingly common behaviour.
Re:No telemetry in the Rust compiler: metrics without betray... by JohnFen on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:47PM (#36961638)
We have had decades of companies demanding, sneaking, and exfiltrating data from us regardless of our wishes. Companies that put a great deal of effort even into bypassing various methods users have made to put a stop to this.

Collection of any data about me, my machines, or my use of my machines without my informed consent is spying. How sensitive the data actually is is beside the point.

In any case, so much good will has been burned now that it's not unreasonable to be very sensitive about any data collection whatsoever. People being reluctant to share isn't a case of people being unreasonable, it's an understandable response to so many years of abuse and violation of trust.

Re:No telemetry in the Rust compiler: metrics without betray... by nindalf on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @04:17PM (#36962106)
> What privacy concerns?

Most HN people are anti-telemetry and tracking. I've never actually seen these privacy concerns being fleshed out with specific details of how logs could be abused but it really doesn't matter if a real mechanism for abuse exists. What matters is people fear that it may exist and stop using the tool as a result.

I suggest taking a look at the thread suggesting telemetry in the Go toolchain (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34707583). You can judge for yourself if there's legitimate concerns being surfaced, but there's no doubt that there's significant opposition to such the proposal.

Rust is getting ahead of this discussion by making it clear that their log collection won't phone home and it won't be automated.