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Re:Salary history: Just say no by ghshephard on Sunday November 16, 2008 @10:44PM (#366552)
Having everything on the application form just makes life so much easier. I realize for the candidate that getting to the point of being hired is a major event, that happens only once every 3-4 years, and so providing references is a big deal. On the other side, we're doing reference checks, even in a small company, with around 20-30 references/month. Keeping everying on an application letter means that we don't have to delay the process and do (even more) back and forth with the candidate to track down their references.
Re:Salary history: Just say no by netcan on Monday November 17, 2008 @12:52AM (#366614)
When an applicant is expected to provide references, they probably call first to let these references know or ask permission. Since these are often not close friends, that isn't something you want to be doing multiple times. He/She must also reveal that they are applying for a job, something they may not want to discuss given the likelihood of rejection. If you are going to 5 - 10 interviews over the course of several months, that's a reasonable inconvenience to juggle.

To avoid this the hiring company would simply have to obtain this information at a later stage. As you mention, they would have been in contact anyway to discuss compensation & such. A pretty minor detail.

Some things are unavoidable: Writing a job application is more emotionally draining & time consuming then reading one. Interviewing less then being interviewed.

But things like these really put to light the asymmetry: A major inconvenience for the applicant is acceptable to avoid a minor one for the employer.

I think the reason you get such seemingly strident positions from the applicant side of the street is that it feels a lot like abusing the asymmetry.

Re:Salary history: Just say no by ghshephard on Monday November 17, 2008 @03:05AM (#366686)
I don't buy this - When someone who wants to use me as a reference starts interviewing - they call me and say "I'd like to use you as a reference, is that OK? Can you give me a call if anyone contacts you"

That's about it. When I get a call, it's usually because a job offer is about to be made, and both myself and the individual I'm providing a reference for are happy to have that call go out.

Re: Filling out application forms - the first one is a pain as you try and figure out who your emergency contact is, what your home phone number and mailing address is, the dates/names of your last 5 years of jobs, and what the contact information for your references is. Once that's done, it is fairly straightforward, as the information typically doesn't change for the 4-6 months you'll be looking for a job.

Also, If you've made it to the point at which we are interviewing you, you probably have a > 33% chance of being hired. You've been phone screened at least twice, and your resume has been reviewed carefully a few times. You are filling in that application letter because there is a good chance we want to hire you, and we need the information you are filling in.

Just to be clear - I haven't personally ever had an applicant not fill in the section on references on the application form, so it's a non-issue for me. I bring it up only because we did have a candidate in another department indicate they wouldn't provide references unless a job offer was going to be made - not the end of the world, but it would be important that that was the only "No, I won't cooperate" moment in the interview process.

Re:Salary history: Just say no by netcan on Monday November 17, 2008 @03:24AM (#366696)
Look. I'm not particularly experienced in this. Honestly, I probably would provide whatever was asked & not make a big deal & be cooperative.

I'm just trying to rationalise the undertone all over this thread which I naturally sympathise with. As an applicant, you are expected to meet whatever terms are presented. This leads to a convention favouring employers that feels belittling to employees. You are to provide whatever information is asked. You are to take whatever information is given. Otherwise, it is a strike against you. Maybe one point (providing salary info) is strategically important to take a stand & take the hit. As you say, they can get away with one. But you start on the back foot.

I have experienced & have heard from friends & family of many many situations where the employer did not reveal the salary level until the point where they were really looking for a yes/no. In many cases, I've known people to take jobs without knowing (but having a good guess). This is probably out of their timidity & new graduates workforce returnees etc. are more prone to it then technical employees that find it easier to find jobs. But it's not uncommon & it is abusive to an extent.

It's not uncommon not to hear back for months or ever. It's not uncommon to be told you're being considered, & being left to stew for weeks.

I imagine that asking for reference equivalents (can i speak to some recent recruits?) would be seen similarly to asking to provide references at a later date: uncooperative. Asking about previous salaries is just another point. But (whether this is true or not) will seem like it puts you at a disadvantage in negotiating where you would not be able to gain the same. (how much do your last three hires earn?)

Many employers try hard to maintain their names as good employers. But it seems that the marketing stops once you have put in an application.

Look at it this way. Most potential employees are very intentional in the questions they ask. They are not intended to evaluate the employer. They are intended to make an impression by showing you care about the right things. It doesn't seem that employers try to sell themselves at all during the interview process. That is not a pleasant situations. Reality says you deal with it(& blog in defiance). But Noone likes it.