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Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by dumpsterdiver on Thursday July 06, 2023 @11:27AM (#36617502)
Yeah, N64 was weirdly devoid of memorable RPGs. Surprising considering that both before and after that generation the RPGs rained from the sky. Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, Chronotrigger... the greats.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by AdmiralAsshat on Thursday July 06, 2023 @11:37AM (#36617653)
Square and Enix (before they became one) both jumped ship to PlayStation because they deemed the N64 cartridge's memory capacity far too small for the kind of games they wanted to make. And to that extent, they're probably right--Final Fantasy VII took three CDs as it was. A game across three cartridges would've cost a fortune, and that's assuming you somehow got a 1:1 rate between them. The RE2 N64 port is the only game that got close, and that was with a ton of clever compression and massive downsizing of audio and video. More likely it would've taken 5-10 carts.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by Macha on Thursday July 06, 2023 @02:00PM (#36620149)
A game across three cartridges would've cost a fortune, and that's assuming you somehow got a 1:1 rate between them

The problem is worse than that:

1. The largest NES cartridge is 64MB, a PS1 CD is 10x that, so imagine 30 carts

2. A lot of the data across the 3 discs is actually the same data. Think character models and attack animations for your party members, locations you can revisit at any time, the base world map, common soundtracks, etc. The disk to disk differences were mostly things like FMVs and event soundtracks as a result. So the minimum data for the game to run would exceed 1 cartridge. So not only would you have to swap discs at certain points in the story, you'd have to swap them at other points, e.g. because you were backtracking. Trying to gather a spell from a starter dungeon for Beta? Please remove Vincent from your party and insert cartridge 2.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by Macha on Friday July 07, 2023 @06:19AM (#36629628)
Minor correction I missed before the edit window expired:

> The largest N64 cartridge is 64MB

Hopefully it was clear I meant N64, not NES from context and the PS1 comparison

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by dumpsterdiver on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:31PM (#36732598)
I'm very thankful that a basic statement from myself like, "N64 was surprisingly devoid of memorable RPGs" would be met with input by people who were actually there, and provide first hand accounts. You are the folks who make Hacker News an absolute treat.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by gota on Thursday July 06, 2023 @11:49AM (#36617845)
Super Mario RPG! By Nintendo itself. How was that not ported/sequel'ed into the N64?!
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by jamie_ca on Thursday July 06, 2023 @12:21PM (#36618369)
Paper Mario released on N64, picking up the "Mario in an RPG" thread and starting a series proper.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by chrisco255 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:15PM (#36619356)
Super Mario RPG was a collab between Nintendo and Square. Square famously jumped ship after Nintendo ditched the CD format. As another mentioned, Paper Mario was supposed to be the spiritual successor to SMRPG. Even though Paper Mario was a modest success, I still consider it a miss on matching SMRPG's quality bar for an RPG.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by johnzim on Thursday July 06, 2023 @05:34PM (#36623415)
In addition, Square still held a bunch of specific legal rights around it, which is why Paper Mario was branded as being distinct, even if it had a lot of obvious commonalities.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by Keyframe on Thursday July 06, 2023 @02:41PM (#36620795)
Great game (and sequels) but it wasn't released in Europe for example. Nintendo always did these strange business moves that made no sense yet they always prevailed. For example they had everything needed to connect DS and Wii - never did. Online shop? Dead for years, etc.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by danbolt on Thursday July 06, 2023 @12:30PM (#36618511)
I'm convinced that if Falcom had reworked Popful Mail for the Nintendo 64 (with Working Design's 90's anime dub) it could have been a surprise hit with the preteens that only had Ocarina of Time and Ogre Battle on the system.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by chrisco255 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:22PM (#36619486)
Playstation became the RPG console back then. Square was the king of the genre, and they wanted to create cinematic experiences with pre-rendered graphics. Only the CD format was large enough to support that.

The N64 also suffered from a margin problem. Game cartridges were sometimes $10-$20 wholesale for producers, while CDs were probably about 10-25 cents. And then they had to pay a hefty licensing fee to Nintendo on top of that.

What's odd to me, is that almost no one on the N64 chose to simply recreate 2D graphics from the SNES era with improved quality. A quality JRPG built with SNES-like graphics would have still sold just fine, but I think the belief back then was that everything had to be 3D and cutting edge to sell.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by error503 on Thursday July 06, 2023 @03:36PM (#36621613)
> What's odd to me, is that almost no one on the N64 chose to simply recreate 2D graphics from the SNES era with improved quality. A quality JRPG built with SNES-like graphics would have still sold just fine, but I think the belief back then was that everything had to be 3D and cutting edge to sell.

I'm pretty sure the hardware would have given developers a real run for their money to create a SNES-level JRPG experience with smooth, good quality sprite-based graphics. As far as I know it has no 2D acceleration like the SNES, and a very small texture buffer, which leaves slow software rendering directly to the framebuffer, or low quality texture-based sprites. The hardware was really not designed for this type of game, so few were made.

Not providing any hardware to handle those types of games was a function of 3D being all the rage, and the hardware being very clearly targeted at that, but it also meant that creating 2D games was not just out of fashion, but impractical.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by chrisco255 on Friday July 07, 2023 @02:11AM (#36627860)
N64 had several 2D games, it just wasn't common.

Yoshi's Story is prob best example. 2D platformer by Nintendo with gorgeous graphics. However, it was a lackluster, forgettable game. Still it proves the 64 was more than capable of exceeding 2D experiences from SNES.

Other examples are StarCraft 64, Bust-a-Move 2, Mortal Kombat Trilogy, SimCity 2000, Killer Instinct Gold (character models 2D), Magical Tetris Challenge, Rampage 2, Ogre Battle 64, MK Mythologies: Sub Zero, Clay Fighter 63 1/2 (2D character models), South Park: Chef's Love Shack, Mischief Makers, etc etc

It was more than capable of exceeding SNES quality graphics on every metric. The RDP on the N64 already had to render 2D rasters that were pre-transformed from 3D projections by the signal processor chip.

Remove that 3D transformation step and allocate some RAM for buffer and you had a perfectly capable 2D platform.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by error503 on Friday July 07, 2023 @02:23PM (#36636147)
There's no question it was possible, but the previous generation consoles provided powerful hardware sprite/tile-based engines with layers, smooth parallax scrolling, '2.5D' transformations and more. N64 has none of that, and as far as I know the SDK didn't include anything like a software 2D engine either. If you wanted to make a 2D game, you'd have to implement your own 2D rendering pipeline more or less from scratch. I also think the N64's relatively low memory bandwidth and low amount of RAM would have been an issue to get past for a software compositor.

So yeah, it does provide access to the framebuffer, and has a reasonably capable CPU - more or less like PCs of the time did, so of course it's a 'perfectly capable 2D platform' but in this era I don't think we were quite at the point where brute-forcing the graphics pipeline in software was 'easy', and the 2D hardware capabilities were basically nil, compared to SNES or hell Neo-Geo which are very powerful.

It wasn't preventing anyone from producing 2D games, obviously good games could be made, it was just definitely not optimized for that, and that just put more pressure towards 3D, that already had a lot of cultural pressure towards it.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by chrisco255 on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:11AM (#36641522)
A 2D rendering pipeline is trivial. There are numerous hobbysist 2D rendering frameworks for every computer architecture in the past 40 years. It was far more difficult to program N64 in 3D than in 2D. The CPU was more than capable to exceed SNES in every dimension. It was not hard at all. 3D already requires 2D rendering.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by DropInIn on Saturday July 08, 2023 @07:12PM (#36649697)
You could easily just treat it like Unity does, where the 3d ness is an illusion and everything is actually in 3d space.... Super easy, barely an inconvenience...

The real impediment I believe was Nintendo themselves... Think about it for a moment. What was the process for publishing to N64? That's right, you had to work directly with Nintendo and effectively get thier stamp of approval (good luck getting enough carts otherwise).

Nintendo didn't want 2d games on thier precious 3d focused console. That simple.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by chrisco255 on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @12:13AM (#36676336)
This may be partly true, but they themselves did publish Yoshi's Story, a 2D game, in 1997, the second year of N64's existence. More likely explanation is that 3D was so novel and new in the mid 90s that it was difficult to argue for 2D games then from a business and marketing standpoint, even though 3D games usually required larger teams and the lack of mature tooling (a lot of devs would have to make their own physics engines from scratch back then) made it riskier. Today Nintendo puts a heavier focus on 2D gaming, with the New Super Mario Bros series and Mario Maker, etc.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by DropInIn on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @10:37AM (#36681602)
Been ages but wasn't it rather paper Mario-esque with heavy use of the 3d to make the 2d more interesting?

I'd need to go look to recall correctly, but honestly it's 7:30am and I'm waaaay not into doing that rn....

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by ARandumGuy on Thursday July 06, 2023 @05:11PM (#36623119)
> What's odd to me, is that almost no one on the N64 chose to simply recreate 2D graphics from the SNES era with improved quality. A quality JRPG built with SNES-like graphics would have still sold just fine, but I think the belief back then was that everything had to be 3D and cutting edge to sell.

I think that's something that's easy to say in hindsight, but hard to justify at the time.

The switch to 3d gaming was probably the biggest technological leap games ever had. 3d allowed a huge amount of experiences not possible with 2d games. And while early 3d games look incredibly dated now, at the time they were mind blowing and cutting edge. The SNES and Genesis were also too recent to really have any nostalgia, so and thus no real desire for throwback or "retro" titles. Any 2d game on the N64 would probably have felt cheap and dated at the time.

Finally, for Nintendo specifically, they did release 2d titles during the N64 generation. They just released them for the Game Boy (and later, Game Boy Color). There wasn't much sense devoting resources to make a 2d game on the N64 when your 2d-only console is still selling really well.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by chrisco255 on Friday July 07, 2023 @01:43AM (#36627663)
I'm not talking about Nintendo themselves, per se. They did a phenomenal job with the titles they did make for N64, including of course Ocarina of Time (a masterpiece) and I'll also never forget how revolutionary Super Mario 64 was.

I'm mainly talking about 3rd party publishers and specifically the JRPG genre. The N64 suffered from a lack of games compared to PS1. It was difficult to do 3D development back then, developers were just getting the hang of it.

In fact that you bring up Game Boy dev as a thriving platform for 2D content is an important point. Pokemon came out during this era. And a 2D N64 based Pokemon would have sold like hotcakes. Instead they built these half baked 3D Pokemon experiences like Pokemon Snap and Pokemon Stadium, which featured no storyline and no overworld.

Even something resembling Super Mario RPG with prerendered graphics on a isometric view would have been fine. It just wasn't generally done on N64. Everyone wanted to mimic Mario 64. The few RPGs N64 did get, like Quest 64, felt so empty, that it would have been much better to just ship it in 2D.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by kaiokendev on Friday July 07, 2023 @04:57AM (#36629077)
I always assumed it was the memory problem. There is more memory for 2D sprite maps on the CD than the cartridge, and it is easier to cull the landscape to fit in the small RAM of PS1 than to optimize the texture packing for N64. There is Ogre Battle 64, but noticeably the textures look much worse than Final Fantasy Tactics. I thought maybe it is too difficult to get nice textures on the N64, even Paper Mario looks nice, but the textures are not that complex.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by chrisco255 on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:28AM (#36641602)
The N64 had almost 40 times more RAM than the SNES. Plus you could create custom ROMs with more memory if needed in the cartridge itself.

If textures looked better in FF Tactics vs Ogre Battle 64, it is purely due to storage on CD vs cartridge, a notable 10x plus advantage.

Square used a ton of prerendered graphics in their PS1 games. That is to say, they'd farm out the graphics to super computers and then store them as rasters on disc.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by kaiokendev on Saturday July 08, 2023 @04:09AM (#36642404)
It is a mistype - by memory I meant disc storage, not RAM
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by philistine on Friday July 07, 2023 @07:35AM (#36630170)
You’re right that Pokémon on consoles would have been great, but you’re conflating some stuff that easily explains why it didn’t happen. First is the idea that Pokémon is a Nintendo franchise. It’s convoluted, but let’s say Nintendo has a stake that allows them some control but they cannot control Game Freak, the developer of Pokémon, directly.

Second is Game Freak proper. They have always valued a small headcount. This has been a problem consistently. They never had the staff to make a console game. They always had the same difficulty with building new ideas. And when they were forced to move to consoles with the Switch, they released their worst games yet, absolutely dispiriting games that probably soured millions of kids on the franchise.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by chrisco255 on Saturday July 08, 2023 @01:24AM (#36641574)
What percentage of The Pokemon Company does Nintendo own? They must have some exclusive arrangement in writing or a 50% or more ownership because it's never been hosted on a non Nintendo platform.

They certainly had the staff to make Pokemon Stadium and Pokemon Snap. Most 2D games in the SNES era only needed like 4 to 7 developers. It would have been fine and trivial even to pair Nintendo game artists with Pokemon developers for a true console Pokemon game. It just wasn't done. It took until the Switch to see a true console Pokemon game.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by philistine on Saturday July 08, 2023 @07:48AM (#36643510)
Pokémon Snap and Stadium were made by other companies, not Game Freak.

We don’t know everything about the Pokémon corporate structure in the English-speaking world. Presumably Florent Gorges is researching this as we speak. But the common theory is that when Nintendo invested in Game Freak in the early 90s to bail them out, there must have been a requirement of exclusivity for the franchise in the contract. Game Freak made games for other consoles after Pokémon, and the Pokémon cards had Windows games, but the main RPG series that’s been both only on Nintendo and only done by GF. Last year was the first time another company touched the mainline RPGs: another company did the remake of Pearl and Diamond.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by throwawaymobule on Sunday July 09, 2023 @08:18PM (#36660500)
From a YouTube video I watched, the bigger advantage of disks was the manufacturing lead time.

With carts, you had to know how many you needed weeks in advance, and were stuck with excess units if the game flopped. Whereas you could have a run of ps1 disks pressed and in your warehouse in two days.

Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by lizardking on Thursday July 06, 2023 @01:59PM (#36620131)
Japanese RPGs were largely transforming into interactive movies by that generation, which didn't lend itself well to the cartridge format.
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by bandrami on Thursday July 06, 2023 @06:27PM (#36624087)
Is Ocarina not an RPG? (Serious question; I'm not much of a gamer.)
Re:Mid-1990s Sega document leak shows how it lost the second... by AdmiralAsshat on Friday July 07, 2023 @08:57AM (#36631008)
Historically, people have been reticent for some reason to call it an Action/RPG, preferring to call it Action/Adventure instead, and IIRC the crux of the argument was usually "Link does not gain experience points or level-up, ergo it's not a full RPG."

It's a silly argument, IMO, but at the time "RPG" in everyone's minds meant either JRPG (Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest) or PC RPG (Baldur's Gate, etc).