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Re:How to foster shoshin by kazinator on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @11:54AM (#36602230)
Shoshin and shoshinsha (beginner) are everyday words in Japanese, not special Zen terms.
Re:How to foster shoshin by pzel_ on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @12:33PM (#36602840)
Yes, in the same way as "evangelist" and "novice" are everyday words in English. This does not invalidate their original religious meaning. Daisetz Suzuki I'm sure was quite aware of both the everyday usage and the Buddhist origins.
Re:How to foster shoshin by sctb on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @12:52PM (#36603161)
Nitpick, but this article quotes Shunryu Suzuki—the other Suzuki—not D.T.
Re:How to foster shoshin by pzel_ on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @01:22PM (#36603664)
Beginner's mistake!
Re:How to foster shoshin by kazinator on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @01:18PM (#36603598)
"Novice" doesn't originally have religious roots; in the story of its etymology, it got sidetracked into religion.

Quite likely because the only dudes who knew Latin in the Middle Ages were in monasteries, and so they applied Latin words they learned to their circumstances. "Hey, it says here that when Romans brought in a new imported, inexperienced slave, they called them novicus. Let's use that for our newcomers! After all, we make them do chores, like slaves, LOLZ!"

Re:How to foster shoshin by pzel_ on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @01:49PM (#36604168)
I'm going off of this entry:

https://www.etymonline.com/word/novice

Sure the root word might be Latin, (and so is a majority of European vocabulary), but the specific usage of "novice" meaning "newbie" in English, comes from the monastic orders, via French.

Monastic orders, which, in fact, did not "do stuff, like slaves, LOLZ", but were instrumental in preserving (or rediscovering) knowledge and technology from the imperial era.

Re:How to foster shoshin by thrdbndndn on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @12:35PM (#36602873)
So are lots of other words. Really hate this trend.
Re:How to foster shoshin by pzel_ on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @12:50PM (#36603129)
Are you referring to the trend of desacralization or resacralization of religious terms?

This is the dictionary definition of shoshin from kotobank.jp:

> ② (「しょほっしん(初発心)」の略) 初めて悟りを求める心を起こすこと。仏道にはいったばかりのこと。また、その人。〔法華義疏(7C前)〕 ※正法眼蔵随聞記(1235‐38)一「或は初心未入(みにふ)の人意得(こころう)

Re:How to foster shoshin by chimpanzee on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @09:35PM (#36609808)
Uh oh, sounds like somebody could use some shoshin!
Re:How to foster shoshin by sctb on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @01:38PM (#36603932)
And this article is mostly talking about everyday concepts like learning. But there's no denying that the idea of beginner's mind is used within Zen in a special sense. From Dogen's essay On the Endeavour of the Way:

> Because practice within realization occurs at the moment of practice, the practice of beginner's mind is itself the entire original realization.

Re:How to foster shoshin by lanstin on Friday July 07, 2023 @02:00PM (#36635721)
no special sense here, just experiencing things without the sense of knowing the outcomes to expect. just sit and see.
Re:How to foster shoshin by hooverd on Wednesday July 05, 2023 @01:51PM (#36604211)
Does Japan have articles like "Top 10 English concepts to live by" where they're all just regular words?
Re:How to foster shoshin by lanstin on Friday July 07, 2023 @01:57PM (#36635669)
as a Zen trainee, i am pretty sure there is no secret meaning to the otherwise normal words. beginer's mind is just that mind when you have no experience to predict what is expected next.