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Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by Veen on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @10:22AM (#36506923)
Apple's plan to compare images on-device to hashes of CP was an eminently sensible attempt to give governments an alternative to banning E2EE encryption. As the government spokesperson in the article said: "companies should only implement end-to-end encryption if they can simultaneously prevent abhorrent child sexual abuse on their platforms." Apple was trying to do the latter so it has a leg to stand on when it comes to asking governments not to regulate against E2EE.
Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by nceqs3 on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:07AM (#36507562)
This is HN. The facts are not relevant.
Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by JohnFen on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:09AM (#36507592)
So, Apple felt it had to "burn the village in order to save it"?
Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by willseth on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:16AM (#36507723)
I don’t understand why comments like this are getting downvoted. I understand the absolutist position against any content scanning, but Apple very clearly tried to strike a middle ground that is far less invasive than the content scanning systems in every other photo service run by Google, Microsoft, Flickr, etc. And then when everyone freaked out, Apple didn’t ship it! Meanwhile the FBI can browse all your Google Photos right now.
Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by smoldesu on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:20AM (#36507777)
Can the FBI not browse all my iCloud photos too?

I don't think a closed-source E2EE implementation would do much to change that.

Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by willseth on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:36AM (#36508016)
E2EE is an option for iCloud Photos now, so no, not if it’s turned on.

Not sure what you mean about closed source. If you’re implying that the FBI can break Apple’s encryption because it’s closed source, uh, sure.

Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by matwood on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:33AM (#36507964)
With a subpoena they can access anything unencrypted. If a user turns on advance data protection, they cannot.
Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by detourdog on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:05PM (#36508475)
Based on the Pen Letter laws. Anything stored with a third party can be subpoena by the government. The reasoning is if one wanted to keep it a secret they wouldn't be sharing with a third party.

If you use an ISP for email the ISP can be subpoenaed with you being aware. If you want run your own mail server from your house. A search warrant of your house for the mail server is required. Different notification standards.

Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by matwood on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:31AM (#36507927)
Yeah, I think people who are absolute about E2EE here need to remember the xkcd about the person with the wrench. Apple's reading of the tea leaves is that the government will be the one with the wrench and will ban E2EE. This was an attempt to head it off. Of course their reading could be wrong, and the government would ban anyway. Or maybe a ban never comes to fruition. I have to imagine it would ultimately end up at SCOTUS.
Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by JohnFen on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:42AM (#36508137)
> This was an attempt to head it off.

Right, by building in what amounts to a back door.

Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by willseth on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:24PM (#36508744)
It sounds like you didn’t read the paper. It’s a reporting system, not an access system. No one can actually be granted access to your photos under Apple’s scheme. One of your photos must be an exact match for photos already existing in the CSAM database, at which point a report is generated, still not with the complete image from your phone. Even if the CSAM database were compromised by the FBI, where is the back door?
Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by JohnFen on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:40PM (#36508982)
I did read the paper, and I understand what the system did. I suspect that you just have a more narrow definition of "back door" than I do.

> One of your photos must be an exact match for photos already existing in the CSAM database, at which point a report is generated

IIRC, one of your photos must match a hash that exists in the database, not an exact match to an image itself. That's the means by which end-to-end encryption is evaded. That evasion is why I call it a back door.

Really, my entire problem with the scheme was that it took place on the device itself rather than in the iCloud. While all smartphones are surveillance devices already, making one as overtly a surveillance device like this sets a precedent that I think is exceedingly harmful.

Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by willseth on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @12:56PM (#36509215)
You’re missing the key point that there isn’t much surface for misuse under Apples scheme. If the FBI wants to falsely accuse you of having CSAM, inserting a hash from a photo on your phone into the CSAM database is actually much more complicated than simply putting CSAM on your phone. Running the scanner on your device means they actually need to compromise your device.
Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by JohnFen on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:02PM (#36509293)
> You’re missing the key point that there isn’t much surface for misuse under Apples scheme.

No, I didn't miss that point at all. It's just orthogonal to my objection to the scheme. I object to the idea of formally making highly personal devices like your phone into ones that are spying on you. We have more than enough of that sort of thing informally. To make it official could only make things worse for everybody, Apple users and otherwise.

Since the whole thing was about photos being stored in the cloud, it would have been much less objectionable to put the scanning on the cloud side of things. At least that's actually someone else's computer and not someone using your own hardware against you.

Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by willseth on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:13PM (#36509443)
Your theoretical objection is divorced from any actual consequences that affect people. Why should anyone care? You state no benefits or harms other than what you feel. My point is about reality, so yes you missed it
Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by JohnFen on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:30PM (#36509715)
Hmm. I think the opposite, that you are missing my point entirely. But, really, it's probably just that we fundamentally disagree on very basic issues. That's fair.
Re:Apple joins opposition to encrypted message app scanning by pseudalopex on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @02:48PM (#36510775)
E2EE with a back door is not E2EE.