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Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:13PM (#36481707)
I remember an article not to long ago (like past 2 years or so) talking about how all these retail storefronts in Greenwich Village and SoHo in NY were closing because the rents became insane, and apparently (for a reason I don't fully understand) landlords felt it better to have spaces remain vacant than to lower rents.

I know redeveloping commercial buildings into residential is very expensive and difficult, but if/when these large commercial landlords do eventually get bailed out, I hope any assistance is conditional on converting buildings to productive uses like residential.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by rcme on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:16PM (#36481745)
I think the reason they preferred the vacancies is that the value of the property is related to the rent price, so if they lowered the rent they’d have to lower the book value of the asset as well.
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by JauntTrooper on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:35PM (#36482069)
I've heard that theory but it still doesn't quite make sense to me.

Investors know that book values are usually stale. They're rarely used as a primary justification for valuation except in industries where mark-to-market is common like financial institutions.

Real estate investors tend to focus on Net Operating Income, which a vacant property won't generate, and Net Asset Values, which are based on market values. Sophisticated investors and lenders aren't going to be fooled into investing in it based on some historical or hypothetical value. Cash flow is important.

If rental properties really were sitting vacant because managers were hoping to preserve book value through an accounting gimmick, I would think property manager that focused on actual cash generation yield would drive them out of business.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by bobthepanda on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:42PM (#36482163)
It’s not the investor but about the loan. Commercial loans IIRC tie default rates to the last rent charged.

So long as the payment can be made at all, it doesn’t seem like people look that hard if the space is vacant or not. Usually only the ground floor is retail.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by sahila on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:43PM (#36483082)
If the bank is not looking at whether the space is vacant or not, why would they look closely at what the rental price is if payments are being made?
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by bobthepanda on Monday June 26, 2023 @08:45PM (#36487747)
* All loans are priced based on the paper rental price, among other things. Pretty much no one buys commercial property with cash, so if the rent is lower the next purchaser won't be able to get as big of a loan, and the original landowner will be underwater.

* Posted rents are sticky, in that they are the basis of the negotiation for the next round of rents, and especially so for commercial real estate where leases are multiple years long and landlords often throw in renovation for leasees. Banks would prefer a space be empty rather than lower rent and then you have to negotiate from a lower base, and getting another tenant would mean having to rip out everything you put in for the current tenant at your own cost.

You see similar issues in multifamily where landlords would rather offer you "X free weeks" instead of lowering the actual rent by an equivalent amount.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by Workaccount2 on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:47PM (#36483166)
The rental value of the property determines the margin that creditors will extend to you.

If your property value dropped (with last paid rent being the proxy for this), you'd be liable to be margin called. If you're fully vested on margin in something illiquid like real estate, then it very well might be better to have a few vacant properties than be forced to liquidate to cover your margin balance.

Obviously though this has the makings of a real estate bomb, as a few forced liquidations could set off a cascade of value collapses.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by polygotdomain on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:49PM (#36483189)
>I've heard that theory but it still doesn't quite make sense to me.

At a high level commercial real estate valuation cares about the cash flows for the entire building (usually over 10 years) and a discount rate to get to a number on what the building is worth. When we see empty space, we think it's not making money, but all landlords assume that a space will be empty at some point and for some amount of time, so that's already baked into those cashflows.

Without getting into the specifics, you'll generally push out your assumptions on leasing that empty space rather than drop your price on cost of the space. Pushing out assumptions typically means taking a slight hit because the cashflows you were already expecting are just hitting the books a little later. Dropping the cost of the space generally decreases market value, so that makes all of the space in your building cheaper which has a much more significant impact on the cash flow for the entire building, rather than just one space.

The other significant factor is that landlords typically have significant upfront costs in base building improvements and free rent credits that they give to tenants. This means that there's a certain amount of time, generally a few years, where the landlord has paid out more money to the tenant than they've received. Landlords need to be confident that the tenant is going to be paying rent beyond that break even point, or else they've lost money in addition to losing out the ability to rent it to another tenant and any legal fees associated with evicting a tenant.

Between how valuations are structured and needing to hit that breakeven point with a new tenant, there are relatively few incentives for landlords to just "lease the space".

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by wnolens on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:22PM (#36481862)
Right, and so lower collateral for other loans. This is apparently rampant in NYC. It's wild that incentives exist to make vacancy profitable. But there's a LOT of vacant storefronts and apparently vacant apartments (though it's hard to get this data..)
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by bobthepanda on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:40PM (#36482127)
IIRC a big issue is also the rise of REITs and other large landlords, which unlike small time landlords have a large enough portfolio to use the losses on a vacant property to deduct taxes.
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by NickM on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:43PM (#36482189)
Deducting losses doesn't make losses profitable, it just eases the sting of the loss a little bit.

If you lose $100, and you get to deduct that $100 loss, then that saves you the taxes on $100, but unless the marginal tax rate is somehow greater than 100% then you have still lost money.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by acdha on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:11PM (#36482644)
I think the question is around scale and distribution: if I own one office building, I’m going to make sure it’s as close to 100% booked as possible or I’m out of business. If I own a hundred office buildings in different cities, I can afford to eat a fair number of vacant spaces waiting for a high-revenue tenant and still make a lot of money - and if those vacancies aren’t randomly distributed that could mean that one downtown can be hit a lot harder than my entire portfolio.

Where I live this has also shown up in the retail/office split: some of the loudest voices calling for the end of telework are the same real estate moguls who jacked the ground level retail rents up and are now surprised that most of the good restaurants out, and most people don’t go across town for chains. They could afford that when all of the offices were booked but now most office workers are asking why they should be taking time away from work to buy mediocre $16 salads.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by freedude on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:01PM (#36482497)
With a tighter money policy coming from the FED in an attempt to control inflation, the availability of commercial building loans is negligible. The market will self correct. Hopefully it won't take a bunch of people with it.
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by piva00 on Monday June 26, 2023 @07:01PM (#36487004)
> It's wild that incentives exist to make vacancy profitable.

As usual with financial instruments, it's probably the result of a model being applied and the limits of the model institute some perverse incentive that is not rational.

In this case seems that the convoluted way of tying up property value to last rental price, and using that proxy to extend margin for loans is where this model breaks down.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by bashinator on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:22PM (#36481849)
Sounds like a regulatory failure; an unoccupied building shouldn't be able to retain book value.
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by bobthepanda on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:29PM (#36481969)
At one point there were suddenly dozens of new bank branches a year because that was the only kind of business that could afford the rent. So the banks ended up propping up the values of their loans.

There were subway ads touting how convenient Chase was with 3k locations in Manhattan alone.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by nradov on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:42PM (#36483064)
It's not a regulatory issue. The issue is loan covenants negotiated between private lenders and borrowers. No one forced them to agree to those terms, and they are free to renegotiate at any time.

But cities that want to retain vibrant downtowns should consider imposing some sort of vacancy tax on commercial real estate. That would give landlords an incentive to lease their space out at a lower rate rather than waiting for a more lucrative tenant to come along.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by bashinator on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:37PM (#36483853)
Curious and just brainstorming a possibility here; is it possible for a city to rezone an existing property? Say a building that's unoccupied for N years triggers an automatic zoning review.
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by nradov on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:28PM (#36485383)
Cities in most states have some freedom to rezone existing properties. They already conduct periodic zoning reviews when updating their master plans, and real estate owners can request zoning variances at any time. So I don't know that a vacancy trigger would really change anything.
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by p_j_w on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:43PM (#36482190)
This sounds like a house of cards itching to collapse.
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by metajon on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:19PM (#36481804)
And compensate creditors.
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by philwelch on Monday June 26, 2023 @12:36PM (#36482080)
> I know redeveloping commercial buildings into residential is very expensive and difficult

At a certain point, it’s expensive and difficult enough that you’re better off demolishing and rebuilding. There was a viral thread about this the other day: https://twitter.com/rossiadam/status/1672216345901932545

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday June 26, 2023 @04:14PM (#36485190)
Yeah, I'm under no illusions about the cost required for these types of conversions/demolitions (though even in that thread there were some counterpoints about how conversions could still be done).

But still, we seem to fundamentally be at a place where we're going to need more housing instead of office space, so we need to make the transition at some point. For example, the new tallest building in Austin, TX, will be the under-construction Sixth and Guadelupe building. This building was designed as half residential/half office. All of the office space was originally leased to Meta, who subsequently pulled out and is now trying to sublease ALL of that space. Seems like it would be much better if they could just turn the entire building into apartments. Despite a recent pullback rents and housing costs in Austin are still completely nuts, and the additional housing stock would very easily be taken up.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by klyrs on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:05PM (#36482550)
> and apparently (for a reason I don't fully understand) landlords felt it better to have spaces remain vacant than to lower rents.

As I understand it (but I'm not sure how applicable this is to any specific place), landlords can write down a loss set by either the last rent they received or the market rate in the neighborhood. If those losses are offset by gains elsewhere, they can zero their tax bill -- which, for landlords with diversified holdings, may be very large.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by ryanwaggoner on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:44PM (#36483094)
This isn’t true, you can’t deduct lost rent as an expense.
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by klyrs on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:51PM (#36483218)
Like I said; I'm not sure about all jurisdictions but it's true where I live:

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/busines...

New York: https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/letters/rental-loss.htm

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by ryanwaggoner on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:54PM (#36483265)
No, you can deduct actual expenses, or uncollectible rent. This does not include theoretical rents that you would have received had the property been rented. No part of your deductible expenses is contingent on the market rent, or the last rent you charged.
Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday June 26, 2023 @03:26PM (#36484533)
> does not include theoretical rents

If only you could do that then I might still be a landlord :-)

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by schainks on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:18PM (#36482740)
> I hope any assistance is conditional on converting buildings to productive uses like residential.

Do not _hope_. Write to your elected representatives, en masse, and demand they do this in any legislation written about the matter, or you will remove them from office.

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by mywittyname on Monday June 26, 2023 @01:43PM (#36483085)
> (for a reason I don't fully understand) landlords felt it better to have spaces remain vacant than to lower rents.

Commercial tenants tend to have very long term leases, order of 10+ years. So attracting a tenant through lower rents has a dramatic effect on the long-term cashflow of a building.

Imagine the salary of your next job determined your salary for the rest of your working life. Would you prefer to stay unemployed or accept a below-market salary?

Re:The World’s Empty Office Buildings Have Become a Debt Tim... by importantbrian on Monday June 26, 2023 @02:38PM (#36483859)
I'm surprised there haven't been any Georgist responses. I think the biggest reason this happens is that in dense urban areas most of these landlords are really speculating on land value. You'd like to have tenants but most of the profits you're going to derive from owning the property are from appreciation of the land value. It's not always worth it to sign commercial tenants to a long term lease and take on the costs of those tenants vs just holding the vacant building until you're ready to sell. I think the best method to fix these issues is to tax the value of land at close to 100%. This forces the landlords to put the land to productive use or sell it to someone else who will.