Do you think you might be onto a slippery slope here?

Eating animals is not a cornerstone of modern society, and none of the experience/ benefits of eating animals cannot be reproduced. Just like using lead in the gas, at some point as a society we might decide that the costs overweight the benefits.

I think we're waaaaaaay past the discussion - it's self evident that animal exploitation is a blight on the earth and on the animals, and the benefits are unclear (for 95% of the world).

So why keep going? Because "i want to"?

What would you think if people wanted to use leaded gas, or use DDT on their lawn? See the similarity?

I bought farmland and raise my own beef because of this type of thinking.

Absolutely, _no one_ is gonna control whether I eat beef or not.

See what I mean? " No one is gonna stop me from spraying DDT" no one is gonna stop me from dumping this chemical waste in this river" "No one will stop me from doing what I want to sentient animals"

Anyway. Enjoy the highest level of depression in any industry and the shit smell all around your house.

Don't you think it's a bit radical to equate raising your own nutritious food to dumping toxic chemicals in the river?

Seems a bit out of touch with reality.

Do you have experience raising animals? I do.

The sheer amount of excrement that you have to handle is absurd, and it's a well documented problem that the nitrogen leaks into aquifers and nearby water, causing massive problems (including the dead zone in the gulf of mexico). This is without commenting on how removing trees in the pasture reduces absorbtion of the nutrients on location and helps with the leaking into water.

What is done to animals in farms is also far from what most people would consider acceptable.

You might be out of touch with what this industry actually comprises.

Esit: And it's impossible to enforce anything on farmers regarding this, there are barely inspections every couple years of the state of the building, enforcing waste management and animal welfare is a pipe dream.

I do raise meat animals.

This is life. We must eat. Large scale plant agriculture is also destructive. There is no escape.

It's orders of magnitude less destructive.

We have to at least try to make an effort and not give up and "enjoy the status quo while it lasts"

It's going to take work - giving up before trying isn't going to help. And telling others to give up won't either.

>It's orders of magnitude less destructive.

Citation needed.

I'm not sure you've ever been around industrial scale mono-cropping agriculture. The amount of pesticides, fertilizers, and herbicides is astronomical.

And you are worried about a little cow poop? Which is natural and beneficial to the soil? Have you ever heard of regenerative agriculture? That is what I practice.

We live in such an alarmist society one can read a few headlines and think the world is going to end. Or think they are educated about a topic.

Great for you that you do regenerative agriculture. You realise that the amount of money you needed to get to a point where that's an option to feed yourself is impossible to accrue for the vast, vast majority of the population? And - while not knowing your exact situation - I doubt you make a living off of this.

So it's a little off topic - regenerative agriculture is not going to feed the world. It's a little "I got mine, fuck the next guy" kind of thinking - not meant as a jab.

We're not going away from mono crops and fertilizer use anytime soon.

It's trivial to show that to feed animals, we have to grow food - monocultures actually. So not raising animals lets us grow less food - less fertilizer. We also cut down transportation of the feed, heating for the animals, running costs, and excrement production.

I am well aware that growing plants is not a clean, pure and friendly thing. But raising animals multiplies anything negative you find about growing plants.

(And about alarmism - I'm not reading headlines, I'm visiting farms, working on them and chatting with farmers, scientists and lawyers on the subject. I'm not just telling you to watch Cowspiracy or whatnot)

Thank you for your many informed rational comments on this thread. You're one of few voices here that give me hope in humanity. Most others here seem like lunatic cultist that are regurgitating talking points that they have done no research on. Makes a man lose faith in the future of his country.

Stay free.

Thanks for the kinds words, take good care !

Ha - funny.

Off topic, but what am I saying that's "bitter fringe lunatic cultist talk"? Trying to understand where you're coming from

Your not one of them. You're also rational.

Cheers!

>Much of the land use for raising animals would not become a lush forest if left alone. There's a reason it is being used for animals and not crops.

With scrub land, that is about the only agricultural use for it. Putting cows on arid scrub land turns useless land into useful land. It's so easy to falsely reason about agriculture when one is so far removed from it.

>What's the ultimate purpose? To subsist using the minimal amount of resources?

That is the ultimate purpose to reduce the standard of living of the poor and middle class.

Pastures and ranches still rewild back into something populated by the ecosystem even if it just looks like devoid grassland to you. Not to mention how many forests are destroyed to turn them into ranchland.