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Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by dekhn on Friday June 16, 2023 @03:00PM (#36362014)
None of these articles admit to a basic truth: deep learning is only a small slice of total computation, and even if it grew 2 orders of magnitude, would not be the largest consumer by area.

If DL costs are unsustainable, it means those other things (SAP, web hosting, and all the ridiculous stuff people waste cycles on) are even more unsustainable, and should be addressed first.

Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by mrtranscendence on Friday June 16, 2023 @04:07PM (#36363083)
The amount of computation in the world devoted to deep learning, in aggregate, might be a small slice of total computation. But in terms of costs borne by individual organizations who train such models, deep learning could be extremely substantial. Particularly if it takes millions in additional investment to achieve only marginal reductions in error.
Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by dekhn on Friday June 16, 2023 @04:35PM (#36363466)
How is that different from any other capital-intensive industry. Basically my point is that there is nothing specific to DL in these articles/complaints, people are just jumping on the bandwagon.
Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by mrtranscendence on Friday June 16, 2023 @10:14PM (#36366519)
For me, the takeaway is that training state of the art models may become cost prohibitive even for large companies. There may be a practical limit to how complex models can become. This is at least plausibly interesting to know.
Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by freejazz on Friday June 16, 2023 @04:37PM (#36363487)
>If DL costs are unsustainable, it means those other things (SAP, web hosting, and all the ridiculous stuff people waste cycles on) are even more unsustainable, and should be addressed first.

That fundamentally misunderstands the point. If it costs me $XXX amounts of dollars to compute the job I'm trying to replace, which only actually costs $X dollar, then it's not financially viable to use the model to replace the job. It makes no difference what the global percentage of computation that makes up.

Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by dekhn on Friday June 16, 2023 @04:55PM (#36363715)
The reason the global percentage matters is that if you are truly trying to address environmental impacts, you wouldn't talk about DL, it's currently too small (and will be for some time) to make a difference.

Just like not optimizing the 1% bottleneck in your code when there's a 50% bottleneck- focus on the big players where the cheap, easy wins are first.

Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by freejazz on Friday June 16, 2023 @05:41PM (#36364317)
Yes, your point makes sense from the perspective of trying to reduce global carbon usage... but that doesn't seem to be the perspective the article is written from, and the title is "Deep Learning's Diminishing Returns" not "Deep Learning Is Not Environmentally Friendly" so I think the point that DL has diminishing returns stands.
Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by dekhn on Friday June 16, 2023 @06:19PM (#36364733)
The paper advances several lines of arguments. Environmental is one of them, it's used as a negative consequence of their purported scaling laws for training.

The paper explicitly says: """Important work by scholars at the University of Massachusetts Amherst allows us to understand the economic cost and carbon emissions implied by this computational burden. The answers are grim: Training such a model would cost US $100 billion and would produce as much carbon emissions as New York City does in a month. And if we estimate the computational burden of a 1 percent error rate, the results are considerably worse."""

(that paper was debunked by people who build and operate extremely large scale cloud machine learning systems).

Remember, Google already built and runs its TPU fleet continuously and the machines are almost always busy at at least 50% of their capacity, meaning the money is already being spent and the carbon (which is much smaller than their estimates) being spewed.

As for the rest of the paper, their arguments about the need to increase parameters to get better results are fairly simplistic, and filled with misleading information/untrue statements.

Basically, everything they claim in the article has been shown to be empirically not true. And the community is already grappling with the "too many parameters approach". The authors would have served the community far better by writing a less critical paper that focused on the opportunities to identify good approaches to parameter and compute reduction that don't affect performance. In looking at the main author's area of research, it looks like he is more of a economist/public policy wonk than DL expert, which I think negatively affects the quality of the paper.

Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by freejazz on Friday June 16, 2023 @09:41PM (#36366333)
AI people sure don't like criticism. I have noted that.
Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by aeturnum on Friday June 16, 2023 @05:54PM (#36364455)
You're trying to beg the question that "the point" must be: "which thing is wasting the most power right now?" It's not. People can talk about at least two things at once. This is critiquing the diminishing returns in terms of cost-per-output. It compares badly, on a unit level, to most other methods. That's a fair critique when planning which technique to use in the future.

Articles are often talking about something that won't end up mattering. But if you can't actually address the point the article is making on its own terms, you're going to struggle to refute it.

Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by dekhn on Friday June 16, 2023 @06:34PM (#36364867)
But we aren't seeing diminishing returns in terms of cost-per-output. We're seeing enormous advances, both in the quality of networks, and what we understand about how to train them, with a large but not unanticipated growth in compute which is still smaller than the growth of compute in other areas which aren't producing scientific advances.

When I refute a paper I start with the weakest points; if I convince my audience to ignore the paper on those terms, I don't spend time refuting the main point (perhaps this is not a great technique, but it is fairly efficient). I didn't even really address their main arguments because after reading the paper, I was just aghast at some of the things that say.

Let's give an example like this: """The first part is true of all statistical models: To improve performance by a factor of k, at least k**2 more data points must be used to train the model."""

I guess that's true of nearly all modern statistical models, at least small ones with simple model functions and fairly small number of data points. But I don't think that most advanced deep learning experts think in those terms; modern DLs do not behave anything like classical statistical models. I think those experts see increasing the data as providing an opportunity for overparameterized systems to generalize in ways we don't undertand and don't follow normal statistical rules. Modern DL systems are more like complex systems with emergent properties, than statistical models as understand by modern statisticians.

Here's another example: they sort of ignore the fact that we only need to train a small number of really big models and then all other models are fine-tuned from that. To get a world-class tardigrade detector, I took mobilenet, gave it a few hundred extra examples, trained for less than an hour on my home GPU (a 3080Ti), and then re-used that model for millions of predictions on my microscope. I didn't have to retrain any model or use absurd amounts of extra data. I took advantage of all the work the original model trainign did to discover basis functions that can compactly encode the difference between tardigrade, algae, and dirt. I see a direct linear increase in my model's performance as I move to linearly larger models, and I need to add linear number of images to train more classes.

Similarly, for people doing molecular dynamics- the big CPU waster before DL- many parts of MD can now be approximated with DLs that are cheaper to run than MD, using models that were just trained once.

What about AlphaFold? Even if it cost DeepMind $100M in training time (and probably more in salaries), it has already generated some results that simply couldn't be produced without their technology- it didn't even exist! What they demonstrated, quite convincingly, is that algorithmic improvements could extract far more information from fairly cheap and low quality sequence data, compared to expensive structural data. So instead of extremely expensive MD sims or whatever to predict structure, you just run this model. My friends in pharma research (I work in pharma) are delighted with the results.

In short, I think the author's economic model is naive, I think his udnerstanding of improvement in DL is naive, and he undercounts the value of having a small number of huge models which are trained on O(nlogn), not n**2 data sets.

Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by aeturnum on Friday June 16, 2023 @10:02PM (#36366452)
So - this feels like a convincing refutation of the article! You should have said this first! I'm naive in all aspects of the details here but I'm glad to see that you had something more in your coat than "there are bigger energy eaters than these." Thanks!
Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by MyThoughts100 on Saturday June 17, 2023 @09:17AM (#36369930)
Sometimes it's conversation that brings out the deeper thoughts that may not be well formed or put into words. OP may have not been able to clearly articulate their ideas without being prompted into it by yourself
Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by hn_thrwn on Friday June 16, 2023 @08:06PM (#36365670)
I remember people saying the same thing about crypto. Then it started consuming more electricity than Ireland: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/27/bitcoin-m...
Re:Deep Learning’s Diminishing Returns – Cost of improvement... by tesdinger on Saturday June 17, 2023 @04:00PM (#36373988)
The article is forward looking, while SAP etc. is likely not going to increase its processing needs on orders of magnitude from now.