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Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pdonis on Friday June 16, 2023 @11:07AM (#36357858)
> by every other country that is pursuing a nuclear waste management program.

This claim is simply false. Many countries reprocess nuclear waste:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reprocessing#List_of_s...

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by acidburnNSA on Friday June 16, 2023 @11:13AM (#36357958)
Countries that reprocess nuclear waste still need a deep geologic repository for the fission products and minor actinides due to process losses. Reprocessing reduces the number of repositories you need for a given fleet size, but you still need a repository.
Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pdonis on Friday June 16, 2023 @11:23AM (#36358160)
> Countries that reprocess nuclear waste still need a deep geologic repository

That's possible, but even if it's done, it's only necessary for hundreds of years (because the radioactive isotopes left over have much shorter half-lives), not 100,000 years. Big difference.

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by acidburnNSA on Friday June 16, 2023 @12:37PM (#36359541)
Radiotoxicity does indeed drop to ore levels in 300-500 years but even then there are a few problem actors. Partitioning and transmutation can help with these, probably.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-lived_fission_product

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pfdietz on Friday June 16, 2023 @04:11PM (#36363143)
I consider the elements containing those isotopes to be prime candidates for space disposal, not burial.
Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pfdietz on Friday June 16, 2023 @12:37PM (#36359540)
That list includes the US, which hasn't had commercial reprocessing in many decades.

The truth is that reprocessing is an economic loser at this point; even France admits it. They do it because whatever is done with spent fuel is not that expensive compared to the cost of just building and operating nuclear reactors.

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pdonis on Friday June 16, 2023 @02:49PM (#36361821)
> reprocessing is an economic loser at this point

Not on a time scale of 100 years or so, let alone the 100,000 years that are being imposed as a requirement on geologic storage. On that time scale recovering unburned fuel from reprocessing will be cheaper than mining and refining fuel.

> France still does reprocessing because whatever is done with spent fuel is not that expensive

Yes, particularly when you factor in that reprocessing gives you a source of additional fuel (most of the "spent" fuel removed from reactors is actually not spent, and reprocessing recovers it for future use) that, as noted above, is expected to be cheaper than mining it in the not too distant future.

> the boondoggle

It's not a boondoggle at all, it's a rational way of anticipating future nuclear fuel requirements, as above. It's certainly much more rational than requiring spent fuel to be stored for 100,000 years as if that was the only possible thing that could be done with it.

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pfdietz on Friday June 16, 2023 @03:44PM (#36362718)
> Not on a time scale of 100 years or so

AT THIS MOMENT it's an economic loser. If you need reprocessed fuel in 100 years, by the miracle of nonzero interest rates you save money by doing it closer to then instead of right now. The cost of storing the fuel until then is low enough that this works out.

> It's not a boondoggle at all, it's a rational way of anticipating future nuclear fuel requirements, as above.

No, it's a waste of money to do it right now.

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pdonis on Friday June 16, 2023 @06:14PM (#36364664)
> it's a waste of money to do it right now

If you're allowed to store the current waste in a facility that's only good for 100 years or so, then yes. But not if you're required to store any waste you don't reprocess for 100,000 years.

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pfdietz on Friday June 16, 2023 @07:58PM (#36365611)
Where does that requirement come from, though? If society is going to collapse in 100 years, I suggest the money be better spent preparing for the consequences of that, not worrying about whether the documentation on dry casks will satisfy some licensing requirement.
Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pdonis on Monday June 19, 2023 @01:38AM (#36387665)
> Where does that requirement come from, though?

I've answered that already in another subthread we're having.

> If society is going to collapse in 100 years

Where was that kind of thinking involved in this at all?

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pdonis on Friday June 16, 2023 @02:52PM (#36361876)
> That list includes the US, which hasn't had commercial reprocessing in many decades.

But it also includes many countries that reprocess currently.

The US has not reprocessed fuel in many decades, and never on any significant scale, because the Carter Administration outlawed it based on mistaken concerns about proliferation, and it's been a political pariah ever since. It has nothing to do with any rational technical assessment.

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pfdietz on Friday June 16, 2023 @03:49PM (#36362797)
Pakistan and India do it for their nuclear weapons programs. You don't want to be making that argument.

The UK, France, Japan, and Italy don't reprocess anymore (I'm not sure Italy ever did on any substantial scale).

Carter stopped reprocessing by executive order, but Reagan quickly reversed that order. No reprocessing then occurred, because reprocessing made no economic sense. It turned out Carter's order isn't what killed reprocessing in the US; cold hard economics did. It did provide a convenient excuse for those who wish to ignore that reality.

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pdonis on Friday June 16, 2023 @06:16PM (#36364694)
> Carter's order isn't what killed reprocessing in the US; cold hard economics did.

No, "cold, hard economics" would say, if you are correct that it's not even cost effective to do any reprocessing now, that the spent fuel should be stored for 100 years or so and then reprocessed, when it's economically cost effective.

But US policy has been that spent fuel has to be stored in a facility that's good for 100,000 years. That makes no sense if the waste is going to be reprocessed 100 years from now. It makes sense only as part of a political scheme to kill nuclear power altogether. Which is exactly what it was, even if on paper reprocessing was "allowed" after the Reagan administration.

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pfdietz on Friday June 16, 2023 @07:56PM (#36365603)
You do raise a good question: why was there this idea that burying waste now was a good idea? I can think of two reasons:

First, it may have been thought that opposition to nuclear energy is due to waste, and that burying it would remove the opposition. I consider this ill-founded, both because those predisposed to oppose nuclear use waste only as one of many arguments, and because the actual objective argument (economics) as nothing to do with waste.

Second, it may have been thought in the height of the Cold War that spent fuel at the surface would be a tempting target for ground burst H-bombs, where it would then contribute to long term fallout (each 1 GW(e)-year of spent fuel has about the same long lived fission products as a 20 MT bomb.) This is not an argument the government would have been pushing publicly, of course.

Re:Finland's plan to bury spent nuclear fuel for 100k years by pdonis on Monday June 19, 2023 @01:37AM (#36387658)
> why was there this idea that burying waste now was a good idea?

I've already answered that: nobody actually thought it was a good idea. It was imposed as a policy because the actual (though of course not publicly admitted) purpose of the policy was to kill nuclear power by imposing unreasonable requirements on it. (It's possible, I suppose, that the Cold War rationale you give played a role, but I don't think it's very likely; that objective could have been met without requiring anything like 100,000 year storage.)