News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by mdasen on Thursday November 13, 2008 @01:13PM (#363347)
Is it really that GM has failed to innovate? Let's look at the numbers:

  GM======================================Toyota
  $1,525 in healthcare per vehicle        $201 in healcare per vehicle
  $73.73 avg cost of a labor hour         $48 avg cost of a labor hour
  34.3 hours to build a vehicle           27.9 hours to build a vehicle
  Loses $2,331 per vehicle                Makes $1,488 per vehicle 
So, let's just alter GM's healthcare and labor costs to Toyota's levels. Lowering labor costs would save GM $882.54 per vehicle. Add to that the difference in healthcare costs and GM would save $2206.54 per vehicle - nearly making them profitable right there! Yes, they're still not profitable, but it would be a huge difference.

The other things they need to do is use less labor hours to build a vehicle, increase plant utilization (which is only at 85% right now), and get idle workers off their payroll - yes GM is contractually obligated to pay people not to work.

GM should innovate. They do need to come up with better models. They do need more reliable cars. They do need to be more fuel efficient. However, none of those are really their big problem. GM is still selling nearly as many cars as Toyota. They don't have problems creating popular cars. That's a misconception with many people who happen to dislike GM cars (heck, I think they're complete crap).

The big question is, can GM reduce those labor and healthcare costs? If not, they will NEVER, EVER be profitable. You can't compete with a $2,200 handicap per vehicle. In fact, it's a testament to GM that they have been able to compete for so long with such a huge disadvantage. If those costs can be lowered, GM just needs a small loan (like $25bn) and a few years time. If those costs can't be lowered, we'll be talking about giving them another $50bn in a year and another $100bn in two years.

EDIT: Figures provided by NPR (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/)

Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by blackguardx on Thursday November 13, 2008 @02:03PM (#363434)
People latch on to little tidbits and think that they are the reason for GMs downfall. For example, the statement: "GM pays people not to work." Inevitably unions will be blamed somewhere along the line as well. There is more to this story than meets the eye.

GM is a factory with a semi-skilled labor force. They produce very expensive goods. Because of this, they don't produce at maximum output all the time. If sales numbers slump one month, they cut production. To cut production, they have to cut their workforce. When they cut their workforce, they don't want to fire someone that has a lot of experience because they may just need him/her next month when sales pick back up again. So they pay this person to keep up a relationship until they need him/her back at work. They may not even pay this person his/her full rate.

Consider that while one car's sales are dwindling, another's might be picking up. Well, a person putting doors on a Chevy Malibu can probably do the same thing on a Chevy Trailblazer. In this case, the worker isn't paid to be idle, he/she just switches car lines.

Even if the worker is paid to be idle, you shouldn't blame the worker or the union. A contract requires two parties. The auto manufacturers made these agreements with the unions, knowing the consequences full well. Why blame a person for wanting nice pay and benefits?

Also, if the auto manufacturers wanted to renegotiate to save themselves, the unions would support it. In the past, the US auto manufacturers have renegotiated union contracts to cut pay. After all, what good is a union if its members have no jobs?

Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by redrobot5050 on Thursday November 13, 2008 @03:37PM (#363556)
The problem is UAW doesn't want to re-negotiate because it knows there's no way it will ever have its standard of living this good ever again. GM and Ford would probably insist on slashing wages by half. Already new hires who are not UAW are put on a different pay and benefit scale to reflect that a machine could do their job. GM has already volunteered 300,000 UAW employees for "early retirement" -- coaxing them to leave the line and retire early -- so they could be replaced with cheaper, non-union labor.
Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by blackguardx on Thursday November 13, 2008 @04:26PM (#363615)
The UAW won't exist if the big three fold.
Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by redrobot5050 on Friday November 14, 2008 @01:10PM (#364581)
Its not smart to know that. Its confident they will be bailed out.
Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by jdavid on Thursday November 13, 2008 @01:28PM (#363375)
Have you ever heard of JIT Manufacturing? or just in time manufacturing? The process was DEVELOPED by the Japanese in the 80's to compete with the American giants.

The Japanese do not produce a car, until they know it is needed. It took the American car companies decades to catch on, and even then labor unions prevent the auto industry from moving from human labor to machine labor, which can be cheaper than even a Chinese laborer.

We can produce cars cheaper than Japan, we just don't want to sacrifice millions of jobs doing it. Where the Japanese have found a way to move forwards. Labor unions have had such a grasp on the airlines, education, and the auto industry its no wonder that we need to consider bailing these industries out. They are the most socialist industries in the country.

If we need to save these industries, I do think we need to use government funds, but shouldn't they be economic development funds? Rather than cash that will be burned on failed employment standards?

Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by mdasen on Thursday November 13, 2008 @01:51PM (#363411)
I agree to an extent with what you've said. I think labor is a balance. GM had it swing too far toward labor. However, if you're an auto worker, there's likely only one employer in your town which gives that employer undue power. Ideally, there are many employers that demand the same skill set that you can get a job with. In that case, you have the choice of many firms and the firms have the choice of many workers and it works out pretty well.

Since there are only a few auto manufacturers and the likelihood that there's more than two in your commutable distance is low means that auto manufacturers have the power necessary to abuse their workers without unions.

However, unions became ultra-effective in many places demanding things like pay even when plants aren't used and benefits fit for a king. GM agreed to that because, at the time, the auto industry was really just Ford and GM and the unions were sticking it to Ford too and so it didn't matter so much. That's changed, but the UAW won't face the post-80s reality.

Having workers have no power is bad. Having companies have no power is bad. Having each group have equal power works pretty well.

Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by mtw on Thursday November 13, 2008 @01:50PM (#363410)
JIT ftw! (it led to agile development)
Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by bcostlow on Thursday November 13, 2008 @02:11PM (#363442)
The only way to cut GM's health care costs are to cut loose the 406,000 retirees--and their dependents--who get health care via GM pension plans.

Of course I find it interesting that if I can't make the mortgage due to circumstances I didn't predict, too bad. I can't even discharge that during personal bankruptcy anymore, it's pay the whole freight or get out.

GM entered a set of contractual obligations, didn't predict a future where they could not meet those obligations, and now wants the taxpayers to bail them out, or they get to file Chapter 11 and cut the retirees loose. Taxpayers still pay because those retirees will need more government aid and cost of care write-offs which raise health care costs for everyone else.

All this would be moot if the US health care system were not employer-based, in which case the playing field would be level already, with a big fat 0 for both firms.

I'd also like to see how the $73.73 figure is calculated. The actual wage gap between the two is about 3 bucks an hour (same link) but the total labor cost gap is more than $25 an hour. Does that include healthcare (in which case it was counted twice). If not, that's awful high. Maybe pension obligations? That's way high. Using the quick 50% of wage cost--a common HR WAG when you don't have hard numbers--Toyota should be around $40, so they are high at $48, but GM should be around $46, and they're above $73.

GM also sells a lot of cars not because they're people's primary choice, but because prices for an equivalent car are lower, or the financing is better. Considering GM is losing money per car at this point, I hardly think those lower prices are GM's choice.

Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by Xichekolas on Thursday November 13, 2008 @06:34PM (#363752)
I also wonder about that $73 figure. It must include healthcare, which means it was double counted in the OP.

My dad is a retired GM employee (33 years), and I can tell you that his base pay was about $28/hr at the end. Granted, the cost of benefits were so high that they were scared to hire too many people, so he got tons of overtime.

In fact, he averaged over 60 hours a week (and often up to 85) the last 7 years he was there (1998-2005), so his annual pay looked pretty darn good with all that time-and-a-half. He accepted a buyout to retire, even though he wasn't really ready to, and as he was leaving they already had most of the plant converted to $14/hr non-union positions.

The days of the platinum health-care for retirees are pretty much over as well. My mom just spent a week at home sick because she didn't want to spend $175 to go to the doctor. When I was growing up we could go to the doctor/hospital for free on Dad's insurance, so this was a bit of a shock to me. Sadly it seems like my $55/mo high deductible plan beats their insurance in a lot of ways.

I'm not saying all this to try and earn sympathy for my parents or blame GM. I just want to point out that it's not all roses for the 'greedy union workers and retirees' either. There has been a lot of absurd crap over the years (like the job banks that paid people to sit in a room all day), but the absurdity goes both ways. My dad has stories about them building cars that had no buyers, just to honor supplier agreements, and then storing said cars in fields until they were scrapped.

Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by nostrademons on Thursday November 13, 2008 @02:50PM (#363502)
Innovation isn't just product quality. A lot of the most significant innovations come from process improvements - which is why it takes so much less time and cost for Toyota to produce a vehicle than GM.

As for health care, we'd all be a lot better off if the health care system in the U.S. had some process innovations. However, there's so much bureaucratic red tape that not many people want to tackle that job.

Re:Ask YC: To save GM or not? by Retric on Thursday November 13, 2008 @01:36PM (#363389)
I think the most important part of that is the "34.3 hours to build a vehicle vs 27.9 hours to build a vehicle". Even if their heathcare cost per hour is the same they can't compete with Toyota. GM would be better off outsourcing their entire car production to Toyota than to keep trying to build cars. Just let them die.