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Re:REST is over by RyanMcGreal on Friday February 24, 2012 @02:16PM (#3630516)
See, this is the problem with REST: just when you think you've finally grokked it and are building RESTfully, along comes yet another hurdle hidden behind the others. You're not really RESTful unless you also do X, where X is a seemingly infinite regress of progressively more pure necessary criteria that curve toward an asymptote.

Seriously, why is it so hard to develop using a method that is supposed to make building web services easier?

Please note that I'm not trolling: I have spent the past year and a half trying really hard to build RESTful web services, I see and have experienced the benefits of this approach, and I think I've been getting progressively better at it.

Re:REST is over by icebraining on Friday February 24, 2012 @07:42PM (#3631745)
There are only six constraints to be considered RESTful, and those are reasonably well defined. Anything else is either not really a part of REST (such as having to use all HTTP methods, or having clean URLs) or derived from them.

In this case, sending some representation as just JSON (application/json) clearly breaks the Uniform Interface constraint, particularly the HATEOAS principle: a client is supposed to only know the base URL and the mimetypes. If he gets 'application/json' as a reply, how is he supposed to know what to do with it? It may be a user profile, or a blog post, or a description of an UI, etc, there's no way to tell.

Re:REST is over by malandrew on Saturday February 25, 2012 @04:03PM (#3633847)
Is there anything inherently wrong with including a type property on a json response to help with type-marshalling into an object type which both clients and servers mutually understand?
Re:REST is over by icebraining on Saturday February 25, 2012 @08:20PM (#3634448)
I'm assuming "wrong" means unRESTful.

Yes, because the clients have to know that for your service specifically, when they get an "application/json" response, they have to look for that property. That kind of information, unless defined in the standard - in this case, the HTTP or JSON specs - is considered out-of-band information, which breaks the Uniform Interface constraint.

To quote Roy Fielding:

     A REST API should be entered with no prior knowledge beyond the initial
    URI (bookmark) and set of standardized media types that are appropriate
    for the intended audience
Anything besides (URL, mediatypes) is unRESTful.

Of course, I believe you could easily bypass that by making up a single new mediatype (e.g. application/vnd.my-service+json) and then use that for any JSON response with that type property. Since the clients know knew how to distinguish your JSON responses from everybody else's just by their mediatype, it wouldn't break REST.

But on the other hand, if you're using a different mediatype, why not go all the way and just use different mediatypes instead of a type property?

EDIT: As an addendum, the point of this constraint is to reduce coupling and enable the REST clients to be as generic as possible, enabling code reuse and modularity.

Using your example, I could write an application where the core was composed of an HTTP client, with support for plugins that would register themselves as "mediatype handlers". This way, the core could fetch the representation for an URL and then dispatch it to the right handler using the mediatype.

If I wanted to process your API, now my core client would have to include a JSON parser and an hack in the middle of the dispatching code to process all 'application/json' responses looking for your type property. It'd be ugly, bloated (multiple JSON parsing instances), harder to maintain, etc.

Of course, right now we don't see this as a problem because everyone writes a client against a specific API anyway, but frankly I think that's a bug, not a feature. If the REST APIs out there were truly RESTful, I think we'd see much more interesting clients that could combine dozens of different APIs, which is now impossible due to the sheer manpower required.

Re:REST is over by malandrew on Saturday February 25, 2012 @10:08PM (#3634656)
While I totally agree with the ideas you've described from an academic point of view, I don't that they adequately consider the human side of consuming APIs.

Yeah, it'd be awesome if we could all consume APIs with standard interfaces using Content-Types, however I don't think the current solution is realistic or even good for innovation.

Having to define a Content-Type like "application/vnd.my-service+json" and submit it to a standards body and then approved like described in Amundsen's book is hardly practical or desirable.

The standards process today sucks (see the CSS prefix debate for a prime example) (and, I'm not claiming I can do better, just making an observation)

The way I see it, defining types in a JSON format to help with type-marshalling until that format is successful and thus merits standardization is far more effective at promoting innovation than starting with submission to a standards body so that everyone can comment on (i.e. bikeshed) about a format until it gains acceptance.

There is a an interesting dynamic between pragmatism and academics, but I think it would be best for the academics to actively move the pragmatics towards the ideal instead of staying in an ivory tower and letting the pragmatics take twice as long to discover the "pure" solution.

RESTish solutions should become RESTful through standardization into a proper media type. Maybe the RESTful solution is derived from the coordinated cooperation of several participants with RESTish solutions.

Acknowledging and adopting the human element is likely to move things forward far faster than a steadfast insistence on being pure. We could probably have far more useful media types if we assumed that formats eventually become a media type once they become popular enough. Pave the cowpaths.

Anyways, not arguing with your comment. I agree with most of what you said and ot was enlightening. Just saying, that it'd be great if people actively considered the fact that human beings are involved when discussing ideas. Ideas are great, but they mean nothing if you can't humans to go along with them.

Re:REST is over by icebraining on Sunday February 26, 2012 @06:03AM (#3635342)
Having to define a Content-Type like "application/vnd.my-service+json" and submit it to a standards body and then approved like described in Amundsen's book is hardly practical or desirable.

Yeah, but that's why I chose media types in the Vendor Tree (application/vnd.) as examples - as far as I can tell, they do not need to be registered with IANA. And I'm sure they don't have to be reviewed, even if you do register them:

    public exposure and review of media types to be 
    registered in the vendor tree is not required
For example, Github uses application/vnd.github and I don't think they've ever registered that.

The way I see it, defining types in a JSON format to help with type-marshalling until that format is successful and thus merits standardization is far more effective at promoting innovation than starting with submission to a standards body so that everyone can comment on (i.e. bikeshed) about a format until it gains acceptance.

Sure, but it doesn't have to be a standard to have its own mimetype. Just put it after your company's name (application/vnd.COMPANY.FORMAT) and forget about registration, imho.

Sure, a standard would be better, but this is still way better than having to use an hack like that.

Re:REST is over by malandrew on Monday February 27, 2012 @08:20PM (#3641381)
Cool beans. I'm still learning more about custom media types at the moment and this is useful info. Thanks.
Re:REST is over by kls on Friday February 24, 2012 @06:38PM (#3631617)
You know what it reminds me allot of? MVC. MVC used to have a concrete definition in SmallTalk, Struts 1.0 adopted it fairly pure as well, but from there almost everything became MVC and MVC started to become a fairly generic term for separation of concerns. REST seems to me to be falling into the same trap where originally it was the HTTP actions, then nouns and verbs, now it seems to be expanding in scope again.

In defense of the grandparent post though, REST never specified a data or for that mater media format. It could be JSON or XML or even a binary format like a bitmap but a lot of people that talk about RESTfull services talk about JSON which is not a requirement of the original REST concept. REST was more about how a resource was accessed, not what that resource is.

Re:REST is over by icebraining on Friday February 24, 2012 @07:32PM (#3631726)
originally it was the HTTP actions

Not really. The web is a RESTful system, but there's nothing specific to HTTP in REST. It's just an architectural style, it doesn't specify nothing in concrete.

Re:REST is over by kls on Friday February 24, 2012 @10:07PM (#3632024)
I understand that, but for all intents and purposes people are doing REST over HTTP, when people talk about REST and it's use on the web HTTP is implied, my use of originally was definitely not the correct word choice better verbiage would be "when it started to be used by web application developers REST was". That being said They (REST and HTTP) where envisioned together, while REST does not require HTTP, for the most part that is where it is being utilized, HTTP actions being used as the semantics to transfer the representative state.