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Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by sebosp on Wednesday May 24, 2023 @07:51PM (#36065447)
Could it be possible to illustrate with an example just for clarity? How does this compare to, say, the Netherlands? For example what are things that are possible in the United States that are not possible in the Netherlands? I would assume there are things that are not legal but not penalised in the latter but under certain conditions would be addressed and penalised and there's no way around it, but would like to know of an example just to make it super clear for me. Thanks!
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by alwayslikethis on Wednesday May 24, 2023 @08:09PM (#36065600)
In the US it is legal to advocate hate, such as denying Holocaust or promoting National Socialism or white supremacy. The courts have repeatedly struck down bans on hate speech. Not sure about the Netherlands, but this is illegal in many European countries.
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by krustymeathead on Wednesday May 24, 2023 @09:41PM (#36066188)
Radiolab has a great episode about how this more broad application of the first amendment sort of came about due to Oliver Wendell Holmes changing his mind about what actually constitutes a "clear and present danger" between two Supreme Court cases in 1919.

https://radiolab.org/podcast/what-holmes

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by germandiago on Wednesday May 24, 2023 @10:59PM (#36066622)
Idk the US specifics but hate speech in Spain is something govt has used to prosecute others in the name of so many things and in so many situations that to me, it means nothing. Just having a negative opinion is "hate speech" if the right person gets annoyed and goes for you.

It is a very powerful tool to shut up adversaries and it is extremely harmful for real opinions and real free speech.

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by all2 on Wednesday May 24, 2023 @11:23PM (#36066747)
If you're itching to speak freely, we'd love to have you in the US. :D
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by fijiaarone on Thursday May 25, 2023 @12:39AM (#36067108)
Why is denying or promoting something considered hate? Where is the list of things we are allowed to deny or approve of?
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by warkdarrior on Thursday May 25, 2023 @02:43AM (#36067732)
Because denying a group of people (say, based on ethnicity or skin color) the right to exist is equivalent to hating them.
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by concordDance on Thursday May 25, 2023 @03:43AM (#36068057)
Take a person who believes that "there needs to be a country for white people and white people are innately better able to form productive societies". This person would clearly be a white nationalist and a white supremacist, right?

But they may also have no hate towards other ethnicities or desire their deaths. If pressed, they might even say that their vision of a "pure" society isn't worth the deaths of minorities that would come about if they tried to implement it.

I think too often we confuse the stereotypical example with the definition. The stereotypical white supremacist hates minorities, but the definition itself doesn't require it (I know of no surveys that would tell us what proportion of white supremacists match the stereotype).

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by drekk on Thursday May 25, 2023 @04:34AM (#36068342)
You can't be a white supremacist without thinking other races are inferior. That's hateful by definition. They are stereotyping an entire race in a negative manner. They are denying the basic humanity of billions for what end? The Third Reich didn't immediately start throwing Jewish people into death chambers. They had to build up to that moment by dehumanizing their victims.
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by concordDance on Thursday May 25, 2023 @01:16PM (#36073391)
> That's hateful by definition.

My whole point is that you (and many others) are using a new definition of "hate" which doesn't match the old one. "Hate" used to be an emotion, a feeling, a dislike of something and a wish to see it destroyed.

One can feel superior to something without having any dislike of it or a wish to see it destroyed. I consider myself superior in many respects to the rocks in my back garden, but I neither dislike them nor wish them destroyed.

A supremacist may consider themselves smarter or prettier or taller than some other group, but that does not necessarily mean they want to destroy the other group.

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by skripp on Thursday May 25, 2023 @03:49PM (#36075253)
I kind of get your point (i think?) but maybe you shouldn't try to belittle the use of the word "supremacists" in the context of modern language. Try looking up a definition if you are unsure. Maybe you disagree on the definition but that is probably the mainstream one...
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by concordDance on Thursday May 25, 2023 @07:33PM (#36077823)
At your prompting I've tried to look up a definition, but there doesn't seem to be a commonly accepted one... merely usage where the scope of the terms varies from one source to another.
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by nunobrito on Thursday May 25, 2023 @02:45AM (#36067740)
That is simple.

Any left-wing should be allowed, any right-wing stuff should be denied.

Few exceptions exist on the western side, Spain is probably the most remarkable case. Reason why you wouldn't often hear much about what happens there, unless it is something negative to bash the right-wing people there.

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by concordDance on Thursday May 25, 2023 @03:37AM (#36068022)
Note that including denying the Holocaust under "advocating hate" is basically making up a new concept and using an existing word (hate) for that concept.

It comes across as very dishonest.

There are people who genuinely think the Holocaust was exaggerated or didn't happen at any substantial scale who bear no ill will to Jews, seeing it simply as a question of historical fact of limited relevance to the modern day.

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by drekk on Thursday May 25, 2023 @04:25AM (#36068295)
Denying that a targeted genocide happened or saying it's exaggerated is absolutely hateful. I'm not sure how it's of limited relevance when it's within living memory. When (some) Americans start to chant "The Jews will not replace us!" I think it's very relevant to our modern era.

I would really recommend doing a cursory, bare-minimum reading of the associated Wikipedia page [0] and citations. Plenty of historians revise the events surrounding the Holocaust to provide less biased and more nuanced information. Very different from taking an assumption as fact (the holocaust did not happen) and working backwards from that.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by robertlagrant on Thursday May 25, 2023 @08:07AM (#36069702)
I think, as ever with these things, the name is misleading. It's not "hate". We've no idea what people are feeling. Why do we a) think someone feeling "hate" is enough to suspend speech, and b) think if we want to justify censorship, we can't just say it out loud?

Why not just say "we ban speech that says the Holocaust didn't happen"? Why get it classified as hate and then because somehow hate is censorable get it autocensored? It seems somehow disingenuous.

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by habinero on Friday May 26, 2023 @01:40AM (#36080421)
Because there's no rational or non-ideological way to deny the holocaust. The evidence is literally overwhelming.

The only reason people deny it is because of anti-semitism.

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by robertlagrant on Friday May 26, 2023 @04:21AM (#36081487)
Of course there is. People might be ignorant. If a kid is just taught that the Holocaust was made up, no hate is required for them to believe it. People need to stop pretending they can divine people's emotions. What matters is their actions.
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by concordDance on Friday May 26, 2023 @02:37PM (#36088012)
No, some haven't seen the evidence or think it's fake.
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by concordDance on Thursday May 25, 2023 @12:16PM (#36072652)
You're missing my point.

What does the word "hateful" mean? The old meaning is "full of the emotion of hate". Someone who thinks the Holocaust wasn't real could in theory have no strong feelings about it and think it has no relevance to their lives.

It is not required by definition that Holocaust denial is hateful (using traditional definition of the word "hate"). Nor is it required by human psychology (for example, you could have someone who read an unfortunate sampling of books as a child and took "disbelieve anything the victors of a war say about their enemies" as gospel and never got educated on the details).

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by all2 on Thursday May 25, 2023 @01:14PM (#36073372)
It's a useful label to categorize and marginalize speech. This is a common tactic used in propaganda.
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by psd1 on Thursday May 25, 2023 @11:39PM (#36079542)
My goodness. That raises questions. I hope you are merely naive.

"I don't hate them! I just think they got a bit worked up over a few arrests. They're too sensitive. I don't blame them for it, but when you deal with them you've got to remember they can be prone to distorting the truth."

Come _on_

Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by concordDance on Friday May 26, 2023 @03:06AM (#36080993)
Uh, I have no idea what you're saying here. Particularly can't see any relationship between what you quote and my post.
Re:PyPI Was Subpoenaed by Scarblac on Thursday May 25, 2023 @02:46AM (#36067744)
A politician in the Netherlands got a crowd chanting "Do you want more or fewer Moroccans?" "Fewer! Fewer! Fewer!" [0].

A court found him guilty for "groepsbelediging", insulting a part of society, which is a crime. He did not get a punishment.

That's the only example that comes to my mind of something that the courts found not allowed in the Netherlands.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaB75uznT8o