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Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by epolanski on Friday May 19, 2023 @07:42AM (#36000551)
Say what you want about soviet city planning but it was damn efficient.

I have never ever seen a soviet-era suburb which didn't have 4 to 12 story buildings with parks and aisles all around them and all kind of services being at a 5 minutes walking distance top (church, shops, post office, elementary and middle school, etc).[1]

Literally under every building you would find people quietly enjoying their evening on the benches while watching their kids play all around in safety and green. All of those neighborhoods would be perfectly connected with city centers by public transport. Can't think of any of those places where from suburbs to downtown would take you more than 15/25 minutes top.

You could literally fit tens and tens of thousands of people in relatively small but very livable neighborhoods.

But cars have long ruined these kind of neighborhoods by reclaiming those places for parkings [2] (imagery is from 2017, in 2023 it is at least twice as dense in cars). People don't really enjoy their evenings chatting to each other because benches have been removed and kid playgrounds have been moved blocks away and everyone is sitting in their bunkers, uhm, homes, isolated from each other.

Maybe I might be romanticizing but honestly economical progress is such an overblown metric and progress does nothing but make people more and more lonely, anti social and unhappy. It was miles better when I was a kid in Poland.

[1] https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/urban-area-style-soviet-peri...

[2]https://www.google.it/maps/place/Osiedle+Kopernika/@49.81612...

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by prottog on Friday May 19, 2023 @09:36AM (#36001763)
Economical progress is certainly no guarantee of happiness, and hardships do often foster a sense of camaraderie that brings people closer together. Soldiers who have been in combat, for example, find that they miss the foxhole, even though getting shot at is no one's idea of a happy time.

> People don't really enjoy their evenings chatting to each other because benches have been removed and kid playgrounds have been moved blocks away and everyone is sitting in their bunkers

There's nothing about economic growth and material wealth that requires this to happen. Something else must have changed.

> It was miles better when I was a kid in Poland.

Most things are better as a kid, without the worries of adulthood, let alone parenthood. I'd imagine the outlook for your parents raising you in the People's Republic may have been different.

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by Symbiote on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:04AM (#36002085)
It's OK for some things genuinely to have been better for some people in some of the planned economies.

City planning looks to be better for children and perhaps average families for the reasons given. Similar projects were also built in the west, e.g. in the UK, but since they were only for poor people they suffered from inadequate maintenance, security and so on. Those either get demolished, or the green space filled in with more buildings.

> Something else must have changed.

Cars, that was the point. A one-lane access road was originally enough for deliveries, maintenance and waste removal; it would later be widened, then cars parked (legally or not) along the sides of the road or sidewalks. No one wants to sit on a bench and stare at a parked car, and the cars (parked and moving) make it more dangerous for children to play unsupervised.

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by 331c8c71 on Friday May 19, 2023 @10:48AM (#36002619)
> There's nothing about economic growth and material wealth that requires this to happen. Something else must have changed.

Agreed. When I was a kid we used to just roam outside (let alone walking to school and extracurriculars by ourselves).

That's no longer normal at exactly the same places even if objectively it is safer now. The perception of risk must be one thing that has changed but I think there's more to it...

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by david-gpu on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:25AM (#36003062)
> That's no longer normal at exactly the same places even if objectively it is safer now

Safer in terms of having less crime, perhaps?

What about the danger of being run over by a car on the way to those places? Nowadays we typically have more cars, with lower visibility, driving faster than before because the roads are wider, straighter and with more lanes. It is an environment that is plainly hostile to pedestrians and children in particular.

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by 331c8c71 on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:03PM (#36003516)
Probably... Haven't witnessed or heard of any pedestrian/car accidents in my home town to facilitate such a change.

On the other hand, biking would be definitely less pleasurable and more dangerous for smaller kids now. Even as adult I don't enjoy biking with many cars around.

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by WastingMyTime89 on Friday May 19, 2023 @11:02AM (#36002781)
This is something I heard a lot from people from the former GDR. Usually, they start by acknowledging the bad things: the limited opportunity to travel, the surveillance. But then, they tell you about what they miss. Knowing their neighbours, a certain idea of fraternity and togetherness in hardship, the feeling that even as a poor kid you could achieve something and be useful to society as a whole, the absence of really dire poverty.

I think people especially in the US are quick to dismiss the Soviet Republics while ignoring what they did get right and the alienating parts of their own culture.

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by caskstrength on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:21PM (#36005171)
So, like western european countries near GDR (which is in Europe so no point in comparing it with US), but with surveillance and inability to travel?
Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by WastingMyTime89 on Friday May 19, 2023 @08:59PM (#36008443)
I don’t know which Western European countries you are talking about but I’m French and the country is absolutely nothing like that.
Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by caskstrength on Saturday May 20, 2023 @02:32AM (#36009830)
In what sense is it "nothing like that"? France is quite socialist politically, as a poor kid you can aspire to obtain free and good quality education, get some help from the state if you are in poverty while relying on free health care.

What do you think bloc countries and Soviet union were? Some kind of communist utopias? They appear to "didn't have dire poverty" because "social parasitism"[0] was a criminal offense for a long time. Like, police (sorry, "militia"!) could stop you on the street during work hours and arrest you if you didn't have a document from your boss or from a doctor allowing you to skip work. In later times "undesirables" were just forcibly relocated from "nicer" places [1]. Unfortunately description of these in English are quite lacking, but as a person born in USSR I can assure you that all the nostalgia for that times is either coming from old people who actually just nostalgic for their youth (old joke on the subject: - Gradpa, why are you keep saying it was much better under Stalin? - Because I could still get an erection back then!), or intentional political propaganda.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_parasitism_(offense)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_kilometre

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by deanCommie on Sunday May 21, 2023 @07:18PM (#36025537)
Plus survivor bias.

The people who live in St. Petersburg and Moscow today are there because none of their families/ancestors were purged.

The ones who did are in Siberia, or dead.

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by hgsgm on Friday May 19, 2023 @02:37PM (#36005375)
Yeah it wasn't all bad if you weren't in the 50% if the population that Stalin murdered.
Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by WastingMyTime89 on Friday May 19, 2023 @09:02PM (#36008458)
I mean, no offense, but considering I actually talked with these people, it’s pretty obvious that they were born a decade after the death of Stalin. You do realise there was 36 years between Stalin death and the fall of the Berlin Wall, don’t you?
Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by dwighttk on Saturday May 20, 2023 @12:50AM (#36009464)
> Knowing their neighbours

Not knowing they worked for the stasi…

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by 908B64B197 on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:06PM (#36003551)
You can smell the ideology behind these developments from miles away. No cars of course (not that people didn't want them, the central planners simply weren't good enough to create an environment in which they could be manufactured).

Cramped living conditions but ample communal space, so a lot of time is spent in full view of the neighbor (so they can report anti-communist behaviors to the local police). No individuality, identical buildings with the same layout for identical cogs in the machine.

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by floatrock on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:55PM (#36004140)
> No individuality, identical buildings with the same layout for identical cogs in the machine.

And yet when the west does this, we celebrate it as "economies of scale": https://www.istockphoto.com/photos/subdivision-aerial

(well, as long as your tiny piece of lawn stays green, your house is one of the five approved paint colors, and your HOA dues/conformity-fines are paid)

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by 908B64B197 on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:38PM (#36006600)
Better even: if you don't like the community, you can just leave and settle somewhere else that closer aligns with your value. No exit checks, no assigned housing.

I guess to the average worker in the East, these North American housing developments must have been seen as somewhat evil and not desirable at all.

Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by lost_tourist on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:54PM (#36007268)
Just can't imagine anyone being nostalgic for soviet Russia unless they were in the upper class/higher up party member.
Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by dbspin on Friday May 19, 2023 @12:47PM (#36004028)
I don't think you're romanticising at all. I visited (of all places) Mariupol, in 2013. As a city built around the Azovstal steel works, it was still horrendously, actively polluted when I visited. But it also beautiful. Dozens of parks with ice rinks, sports grounds, lakes. Each soviet era block was surrounded by greenery, and despite the wide thoroughfares the city was indeed quiet and friendly. Not to say it was idyllic - the pollution was horrific, the poverty was grinding. With little in the way of pensions, the elderly people were forced to sell jams and preserves from their apartments to survive. Each building had an aging guardian in the doorway - and I was told my by Ukranian partner that part of their function was to prevent the apartments being stolen and sold out from under their residents. But in terms of urban greenery and place spaces, few places I've been, including relatively green bohemian cities like Berlin, come close.
Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by Aerbil313 on Friday May 19, 2023 @03:06PM (#36005680)
Anyone who says “things didn’t changed, it’s just nostalgia” needs to get rid of all the screens which stand in the way of them seeing the real world, at least for a while.
Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by gen220 on Friday May 19, 2023 @04:33PM (#36006547)
You can visit one city to capture this experience. Berlin was largely destroyed in WW II, many neighborhoods in the west and east were redeveloped with the support of the US and USSR, respectively.
Re:Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud by ryandrake on Friday May 19, 2023 @05:08PM (#36006857)
> I have never ever seen a soviet-era suburb which didn't have 4 to 12 story buildings with parks and aisles all around them and all kind of services being at a 5 minutes walking distance top (church, shops, post office, elementary and middle school, etc).[1]

My stomach tingled just reading that, and then when I clicked the picture I felt real, panicked claustrophobia. If I believed in hell it would look like this. Maybe lots of people like living this way, but for me, no way. I'm a human. I'm not meant to be a bee living in a giant concrete honeycomb next to tens of thousands of bee neighbors buzzing around. I can't even imagine myself living that densely without having a mental break.