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Re:Microsoft Workers Won't Get Annual Pay Bump Despite $18.3... by sublinear on Thursday May 11, 2023 @01:22AM (#35897911)
Maybe it's different in other places, but have you seen the paychecks of some construction workers? Sure they are working in potentially hazardous conditions, but the pay can be about the same for similarly tenured workers.

It's important to remember that if you're working for a living, you're still working class.

Re:Microsoft Workers Won't Get Annual Pay Bump Despite $18.3... by heywhatupboys on Thursday May 11, 2023 @02:59AM (#35898707)
> It's important to remember that if you're working for a living, you're still working class.

absolutely not.

"the social group consisting primarily of people who are employed in unskilled or semi-skilled manual or industrial work."

""Working class" is a socioeconomic term used to describe persons in a social class marked by jobs that provide low pay, require limited skill, "

comparing software engineers with factory workers, etc. is incredibly out of touch. Most SE's wouldn't survive a week in hard labor work.

Re:Microsoft Workers Won't Get Annual Pay Bump Despite $18.3... by sublinear on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:03AM (#35899625)
> Most SE's wouldn't survive a week in hard labor work.

Respectfully, speak for yourself. This isn't as rare, or as difficult imo, as you think it is. I'm speaking from a lot of disadvantage. It is what it is.

> require limited skill

Isn't this site usually full of people whining about smooth talkers with no skill? I know I've whined a lot about that. Also is what it is. The world is only unforgiving to those with narrow perspectives.

Generally, what you do for a living isn't as significant as what you learn and do with the experience gained. It's your choice to commit to what you do, or you can keep growing. Up to you.

Re:Microsoft Workers Won't Get Annual Pay Bump Despite $18.3... by heywhatupboys on Thursday May 11, 2023 @05:23AM (#35899767)
So, we agree now that software engineers are not working-class people by any common or accepted terminology?
Re:Microsoft Workers Won't Get Annual Pay Bump Despite $18.3... by sublinear on Thursday May 11, 2023 @06:47AM (#35900347)
I still strongly reject your definition of "working class". It's not the common definition by many miles amongst many significant crowds.
Re:Microsoft Workers Won't Get Annual Pay Bump Despite $18.3... by vertis on Thursday May 11, 2023 @07:57AM (#35900902)
It's a long term evolving thing

> The working class is classically defined as that class which must sell its labour-power in order to survive.[0]

It does go on to define working class as essentially blue collar workers, even highly skilled ones. Which would exclude software engineering.

Though I think it should include anyone for which they aren't earning enough to eventually become financially independent through their labour. This would then include quite a number of white collar workers. Certainly there are software engineers outside the silicon valley bubble for which this is true, especially in parts of Asia and India.

A good litmus test is if you feel you should join a union then you're probably working class and if you feel secure negotiating your own pay then you're probably not any more. Though I doubt this fits a traditional definition of working class.

[0]: https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority...

Re:Microsoft Workers Won't Get Annual Pay Bump Despite $18.3... by nunez on Thursday May 11, 2023 @08:22AM (#35901091)
Lol tell that to the actively working doctors, lawyers and c-suite execs living in the fanciest neighborhoods of their respective cities that own moderate to significant controlling portions of companies
Re:Microsoft Workers Won't Get Annual Pay Bump Despite $18.3... by sublinear on Thursday May 11, 2023 @11:27AM (#35903557)
> actively working doctors, lawyers and c-suite execs

They do work in some sense. They manage resources and dispense expertise from time to time...

> own moderate to significant controlling portions of companies

... but it's a gray area because they're also part of the owning class

Re:Microsoft Workers Won't Get Annual Pay Bump Despite $18.3... by nunez on Saturday May 13, 2023 @11:48AM (#35929517)
Lol these personas work ALL OF THE TIME. Doctors have the weirdest shift hours out there, for example. You have a few that rake in serious cash while working like 20 hours a week, but that's not the norm in these professions.