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Re:The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of s* by vidarh on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @09:04AM (#35886754)
This is a great summary of what my concerns are as well. I'd maybe add one more point:

* Improvements that'd layer cleanly on top of ActivityPub if they'd made any attempt at all.

E.g. being able to "cheaply" ensure that you have a current view of all a given users objects is not covered in ActivityPub - you're expected to basically want to get the current state of one specific object, because most of the time that is what you'll want.

So maybe it falls in the "highly debatable" category, but we also have a trivial existing solution from another open spec: RemoteStorage mandates etag's where a parent "directory" object's etag will change if a contained object changes, and embeds that in a JSON-LD collection as the directory listings. If you feel strongly that this is needed to be able to rapidly sync changes to a large collection, an ActivityPub implementation can just support that mechanism without any spec changes being needed at all (but documenting it in case other implementations wants to do so would be nice). Heck, you can "just" add minimal RemoteStorage compatibility to your ActivityPub implementation, since that too users Webfinger, and exposing your posts as objects in a RemoteStorage share would be easy enough.

Want to do a purely "pull" based ActivityPub version the way AT is "pull"? Support the above (w/fallback of assuming every object may have changed if you care about interop), make your "inbox" endpoints do nothing and tell people you've added an attribute to the actor objects to indicate you prefer to pull and so to not push to you.

Upside is, if any of the AT functionality turns out to be worthwhile, it'll be trivial to "steal" the good bits without dropping interop.

(Also, I wanted to see exactly how AT did pulls, and looked at the AT Proto spec, and now I fully concur with the title of this article)

Re:The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of s* by lucideer on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @09:35AM (#35887136)
Your added point fits in with the initial red flag for me - before I saw pfraze's (excellent) post here - that the vast majority of what I've read advocating for ATProto says very clearly: "Account portability is the major reason why we chose to build a separate protocol.".

Account portability is in no way incompatible with ActivityPub. It's not built into the spec., but it's also not forbidden / prevented by the spec. in any way. From ActivityPub's perspective it's an implementation detail.

Would it be nice if it was built into the spec: yes. Does that justify throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

I was hoping pfraze would offer some better reasoning, but while the post above is a great read for the technically curious, its very "in the weeds" so doesn't really address the important high-level questions. Textbook "technologists just want to technologise" vibes: engineers love reinventing things because working out problems for yourself is the fun part, even if many people have come together to collaborate on solving those problems before.

Re:The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of s* by marumari on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @10:58AM (#35888330)
An unspecified "implementation detail" is essentially another way of saying that it doesn't work.

I've ported my account on ActivityPub a couple time, and it's a horrendous experience -- not only do I lose all my posts and have to manually move a ton of bits, but the server you port from continues to believe you have an account and doesn't like to show you direct links on there anymore.

The latter could probably be easily solved, the former needs to be built into the spec or it will continue to be broken.

Re:The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of s* by lucideer on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @11:21AM (#35888682)
100% agree with everything in your post. I don't see how it contradicts anything I've said though.

> the former needs to be built into the spec or it will continue to be broken.

Absolutely, but ActivityPub doesn't preclude that. There's no reason for that proposed feature to be incompatible with the spec., or to have to exist in an implementation that is incompatible with ActivityPub.

Fwiw Mastodon, the most popular ActivityPub implementation, is (as is often the case with open standards) not actually fully compliant with the spec. They implement features they need as they need & propose them. This is obviously a potential source of integration pains, but as long the intent to be compatible is still there, it's still a better situation.

Re:The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of s* by davidgerard on Friday May 12, 2023 @12:56PM (#35918850)
and I believe CalcKey? is adding account content migration, which is why Eugen is suddenly talking about account migration again.
Re:The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of s* by moojd on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @11:16AM (#35888606)
Even framing it as 'account portability' is missing the point. I want to own my identity and take it with me anywhere. I shouldn't need to transfer anything, its mine. This model is fundamentally incompatible with how ActivityPub works (no, running your own server is not the same thing as decoupling identity from the concept of a server itself.) Could that change in the future? Maybe, but not without prior art. Even if you think @proto, farcaster, ssb, nostr, or others are doomed, we should be applauding them for attempting to push the needle forward.
Re:The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of s* by vidarh on Wednesday May 10, 2023 @11:33AM (#35888872)
It's not incompatible with how ActivityPub works at all.

The ActivityPub spec says that object id's should be https URI's, not that they must. The underlying ActivityStreams spec just requires them to be unique.

All that's needed to provide full portability without a "transfer" is for an implementation to use URI's to e.g. DID's, or any other distributed URI scheme. Optionally, if you want full backwards compatibility, point the id to a proxy and add a separate URI until there's broader buyin.

Re:The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of s* by Ferkv on Thursday May 11, 2023 @04:27PM (#35907937)
> the main challenge there is not the spec but getting buying from at least Mastodon

Which is why a new competing protocol is a good way to push for change.

You want Microsoft to become more open? Then start promoting Linux.

Re:The AT protocol is the most obtuse crock of s* by vidarh on Friday May 12, 2023 @07:18AM (#35914609)
You could do the same a lot easier by pushing an incompatible change to ActivityPub that'd be easy to adopt.