News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by sokoloff on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:47AM (#35851478)
That brings up an interesting question: β€œIs NEMA 5-15 in fact standardized by force of law?”
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by philistine on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:04AM (#35851645)
I think you can make a legal arguement that the way the standards are enshrined in law and there are legal consequences for straying from agreed upon standards, that it is indeed standardized by force of law.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by cf100clunk on Sunday May 07, 2023 @06:00PM (#35856030)
Further to the de jure standardization related to consumer safety laws and civil cases, the insurance industry has created a de facto standardization by refusing to cover or pay out if non-standard electric plugs and receptacles are or were used.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by joenathanone on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:14AM (#35851749)
Yes, via building/construction codes.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by adrr on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:34PM (#35855828)
And we are stuck on AC which is a terrible and wasteful way to move electricity. How much energy is wasted converting AC to DC?
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by ghouse on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:01PM (#35856418)
Rectifiers (which convert AC to DC) are quite efficient. Apparently up to 98% [0]

And then there is the voltage conversion, which traditionally happened on the AC side (inexpensive and simple AC transformers are generally why the transmission and distribution systems are AC). Modern power supplies allow for buck/boost on the DC side.

USB-C power supplies are above 90% efficient. [1]

[0] https://eepower.com/new-industry-products/huawei-claims-most... [1] https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidudw2c/tidudw2c.pdf?ts=168350042...

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by phkahler on Sunday May 07, 2023 @07:41PM (#35856661)
>> And we are stuck on AC which is a terrible and wasteful way to move electricity.

That's a really strange thing to see here on HN. Where did you get this idea?

BTW Europe having 3-phase AC to the home is brilliant. Wish we had that in the U.S.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by adrr on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:34PM (#35857195)
Fact that the US main power distribution network(eg: pacific DC intertie)runs on DC that we concert back to AC for regional distribution and then back to DC to power our houses like lights, tv, electronics etc. AC is inefficient long distances and still needs to be converted to DC to power our stuff.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by phkahler on Monday May 08, 2023 @05:25PM (#35867250)
Most long distance distribution in the U.S. is AC. AC/DC conversion at high voltage and power is a pain, as is DC/DC voltage change.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by rektide on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:56PM (#35857618)
Three phase to the home?! Whaattt?! If you want to rectify yourself some DC power, 3-phase is awesome.

Are there three phase sockets available? I'd think you could build things like high power audio amplifiers or power supplies at radically better price points, if this were actually usable from the wall in places.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by crote on Monday May 08, 2023 @03:37AM (#35859063)
There is IEC 60309, but those are too bulky to be practical for home use. Three-phase power is basically only used for permanently installed equipment, like an electric stove, heat pump, car charger, or solar panels.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by jfengel on Monday May 08, 2023 @03:07PM (#35865749)
How is 3-phase better for rectifying? Is it because it's easier with them 120 degrees out of phase rather than 180?
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by phkahler on Monday May 08, 2023 @05:16PM (#35867180)
You always have power available at any instant. The capacitor is only for smoothing the ripple, not holding energy while none is being delivered. 3-phase motors just work too.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by rektide on Monday May 08, 2023 @10:22PM (#35869511)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier#/media/File:3_phase_... shows the visual of what full-wave 3-phase rectification is. Note how very low the ripple is between the high and the low of these peaks.

3 phase is 120 degrees out of phase. Wall power only has a single phase, 360 degrees. Via +/- rectification the situation gets more complex. The key thing, as the other commenter points out, is that there is always always power available. Where-as with wall-power you literally drop to zero voltage as you go + to - & back.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by midoridensha on Monday May 08, 2023 @01:12AM (#35858350)
>That's a really strange thing to see here on HN. Where did you get this idea?

Why is this strange? I see this kind of ignorant nonsense here all the time.

This site is absolutely full of software people who, because of Dunning-Kruger, think they're experts at everything technical. Electrical engineering isn't that far from the software world (computers are electrical, and their design is within the EE world), so software people frequently think they're experts at anything EE when in fact they don't even understand Kirchoff's Laws, much less the realities of modern-day AC and DC power transmission.

There's been multiple discussions here in recent months with these people advocating absolutely idiotic stuff like a whole-house 5V DC supply, showing they don't even understand Ohm's Law.

On a side note, it's very frequent that I see posts here from people who apparently have never heard of an ad-blocker, yet are complaining about ads.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by adrr on Monday May 08, 2023 @10:36AM (#35861975)
I guess you never been in a data center in the last 10 years. All modern DCs run on DC power because stepping down voltage is easy and 95%+ efficient. Why do we backhaul electricity across the country by DC and convert into AC to our house and then back into DC for our stuff? Add renewable energy generation like solar cells and battery storage and AC makes no sense.

Theres a reason why china is spinning up DC power grids while posts like mine get bashed on.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by joenathanone on Monday May 08, 2023 @09:26PM (#35869163)
Data Centers that use DC still have AC to the racks, then a UPS or similar device converts to DC and distributes to the equipment on the rack. DC is inefficient for long distance, unless you are talking HVDC which is another story and it is disingenuous to act like they are comparable.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by ISL on Monday May 08, 2023 @12:42AM (#35858171)
AC came to predominate precisely because it is easier to work with at an infrastructure level. Stepping voltages with transformers is simple and easy.

If you're AC all the way, there's never a need to rectify your generator, either.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by dijit on Sunday May 07, 2023 @09:53AM (#35851537)
No, you can have receptacles of any shape in the USA, at least at the federal level.

However it's not uncommon for this to be enforced by law, for example it is a legal requirement that in the UK all goods sold must adhere to the BS 1363-1 standard.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by CydeWeys on Sunday May 07, 2023 @10:56AM (#35852160)
Ok, how about at most state levels then? I seriously doubt you could wire up new construction in a completely nonstandard way and then expect to pass inspection.
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by riskable on Sunday May 07, 2023 @11:29AM (#35852440)
I'm pretty sore 100% of all US states mandate that all new construction adhere to the National Electrical Code (NEC). Specifically, NFPA 70. They just delegate the authority as to what's "standard" to that non-governmental body.

Every few years the National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA)--which is a non-governmental nonprofit--publishes an updated standard and then it's up to all the state legislatures to update the laws to require the new standard.

The problem is that the NFPA doesn't just post the NEC for free on the Internet. You have to pay for it (which is ridiculous) and it's copyrighted and as such, illegal to just give away. There was a lawsuit in Georgia that was supposed to determine whether or not that situation was OK (having laws that require expensive fees to view may be unconstitutional since that's like having secret laws). I don't know what the outcome was of that though.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by themaninthedark on Sunday May 07, 2023 @01:26PM (#35853600)
Part of the Georgia problem is that our laws are the same way! The legislators would vote to adopt case law that had added notes/ guidance by a third party, the third party would change fees to view what is then now the law!
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by Multicomp on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:04PM (#35854518)
https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/after-supreme-court-...

The Supreme Court in 2020 ruled that OGCA is not copyrightable, this in 2022 indicates that it has been made available to the public for free.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by themaninthedark on Monday May 08, 2023 @09:13AM (#35861198)
Nice, I missed that! Glad to hear that some sanity was injected back into the system!
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by sokoloff on Sunday May 07, 2023 @06:30PM (#35856235)
> I'm pretty [sure] 100% of all US states mandate that all new construction adhere to the National Electrical Code (NEC).

There are four states who have not adopted the NEC on a statewide basis, leaving any such decision to the local authorities having jurisdiction: Arizona, Illinois, Mississippi, and Missouri.

Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by ajsnigrutin on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:21PM (#35855728)
Funnily enough, power plugs are far from standardized within EU, and there are multiple non-compatible variants (well, one less after the brexit).
Re:EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new i... by Symbiote on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:56PM (#35855996)
Ireland, Malta and Cyprus use British plugs and other electrical standards.