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A comment on EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees. Parent comment

Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by cpncrunch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @06:29PM (#35845912)
Which editors, precisely, work for free?

Elsevier's margin is 19%, which doesn't sound like "the worst scums of capitalism".

If you believe you can do it cheaper, with better quality (because peer review kinda sucks even for top journals), by all means go ahead. I would love that to happen. But, as you can probably guess, I'm kinda skeptical.

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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by _Wintermute on Saturday May 06, 2023 @06:41PM (#35845999)
Elsevier's profit margin is 37% from what I can find.
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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by cpncrunch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @06:53PM (#35846090)
https://www.google.com/finance/quote/REN:AMS

"Net profit margin: 19.04"

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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by tomohelix on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:01PM (#35846146)
Disingenuous comparison. We are talking about Elsevier the journal publisher, not the parent conglomerate that also deal with legal, analytics, software and a bunch of other businesses.
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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by cpncrunch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:07PM (#35846176)
You are confusing net profit margin with operating margin. The 37% figure is operating margin, whereas the net profit margin is 19%. From your link, it looks like the Scientific, Technical & Medical arm has identical margin to the parent corporation.
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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by tomohelix on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:13PM (#35846216)
https://www.relx.com/~/media/Files/R/RELX-Group/documents/pr...

Look under the Scientific, Technical & Medical financial review. That is their scientific publishing arm.

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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by goosedragons on Saturday May 06, 2023 @06:39PM (#35845983)
The academic editors. And the peer reviewers (who basically edit too).
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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by cpncrunch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @06:55PM (#35846102)
Yes, peer reviewers tend to work for free. Can you give an example of an editor who works for free? I asked in the parent comment, but nobody has provided any examples (although they have downvoted it, oddly). I'm not aware of any editors who work for free for top tier journals.

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Elsevier-Editor-Salaries-E23...

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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by jltsiren on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:07PM (#35846179)
Prestige journals with paid editors are the rare exception. Academic journals typically have active researchers volunteering as editors, because the prestige of a journal largely comes from the people in the editorial board.
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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by goosedragons on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:05PM (#35846170)
Journals typically have an editor or editors in the field who is often a professor or researcher at some institution. They don't get paid.
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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by cpncrunch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:11PM (#35846199)
It depends on the journal, but we're talking here about the journals such as Nature and Elsevier which charge large fees, and those journals do indeed pay their editors.
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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by goosedragons on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:25PM (#35846313)
Elsevier literally has thousands of journals. They charge large fees but that goes to Elsevier for essentially hosting a website and gatekeeping. Maybe some of the really big journals like Nature pay but not those like "Journal of Algebra" or "Journal of Cleaner Production".

I'm sure they have people employed called "editors" but they are not the same as academic editors who decide what gets sent to reviewers.

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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by cpncrunch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:45PM (#35846457)
>Maybe some of the really big journals like Nature pay but not those like "Journal of Algebra" or "Journal of Cleaner Production".

Ref? Elsevier (publisher of "Journal of Algebra") does pay their academic editors:

https://medium.com/@SiccodeKnecht/so-what-about-editor-compe...

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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by Fomite on Saturday May 06, 2023 @09:48PM (#35847110)
There are tiers of editors - including both administrative and academic editors. The latter are rarely paid.

For example, I'm on the editorial boards of three journals: Epidemiology, PLoS Computational Biology, and Infection Control & Hospital Epidemiology. I am compensated for none of them as an academic editor.

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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by tomohelix on Saturday May 06, 2023 @06:56PM (#35846111)
A quick google search quickly shows you are either uninformed or lying. Elsevier margin is at least 37% in 2018 and its profit has increased in 2022.

https://www.relx.com/~/media/Files/R/RELX-Group/documents/pr...

Most journal reviewers and editors are academics who do the work as public service, i.e. free. Even top spots like editor in chief only get an honorarium of maybe 10k a year. Considering these people are the top of their field and can easily command 6-7 figures salary at minimum, that amount is nothing. Only very few journals have full time editors and even those end up relying on the volunteers to vet and review articles.

A full time professor is expected to be an editor for some journals. And these academics make up the bulk of "journal editors". But they would not list it as their jobs. I suspect that is why if you look for "editor jobs" you will get lobsided salary ranges that doesn't reflect reality.

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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by cpncrunch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:14PM (#35846221)
We are talking here about the (net) profit margin, not the operating margin. The link you gives confirms the net margin is 19%. Please delete or edit the unfounded personal attack in your comment, as it is uncivil and inappropriate for this forum.
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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by tomohelix on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:38PM (#35846403)
So now we are hiding behind semantics? If 942M is 37% operating profit then with a tax rate of 22% the net profit is still 29% for the publishing arm. Still way higher than 19%.

You are confusing the parent company with the publishing part for that 19%, which is the main subject here. You are uninformed.

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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by cpncrunch on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:49PM (#35846483)
No, the difference between operating profit and net profit is not simply tax. It is not "semantics". The net profit is the actual profit of the company. I see you haven't removed your personal attack above, so this is the end of the discussion. You clearly cannot argue logically and civilly, so it's a waste of time.
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Re:EU ready to back immediate open access without author fees by jimnotgym on Saturday May 06, 2023 @07:47PM (#35846473)
Whatever, it does not imply that any part of that expense is editorial. In fact it could be lobbying costs, marketing and sales. Or the cost of maintaining the paywalled system, and copyright lawyers.

The www was quite literally designed for sharing scientific papers. Hosting them is a 1990s problem. The real cost is in building a paywall and enforcing it

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